PC: July 1830 POD

Assuming the monarchy is here to stay and weathers the potholes of the 1840s, how would the Revolutionary and Napoleonic periods be perceived by the public and academic circles as they faded from living memory? An enduring Royal France with the legitimate Bourbon line, and the French Republic only really being a great, fiery, but still brief blip on the radar in the grand scheme of things is a fascinating world indeed. Maybe sort of how the English “Republican” experiment under Cromwell and his minions is perceived in the UK?
 
I'm responding to the suggestion about the white flag with the standard being used. Which is both complicated and cumbersome. Complicated in the sense that it's too hard to draw/memorize, and cumbersome in the sense that it would lead to a lot of accidents during warfare as the white flag increasingly becomes the international symbol of surrender (the plain white flag would be even worse at this). Not to mention that it just isn't distinguishable enough in general, which is exactly the reason the Spanish Bourbons changed their flag. The standard could be kept, after all if Spain and Portugal still keep theirs to this day, I don't see why France couldn't. But those have been able to preserve it because it's displayed on a clearly distinguishable and easily recognizable pattern.
The standard was not used beyond its use a royal standard akin to the UK royal standard. The white flag was already being used somewhat unofficially as a flag of surrender prior to the Geneva Convention, yet plenty of nations had white flags. Charles III adopted a different Spanish flag because many states in Europe in the period had white flags and it caused confusion at sea and at land—not because of confusion with surrendering flags. Given the stubbornness which the Count of Chambord had in 1870 over the flag, I do not anticipate France’s flag changing during this period. Charles X will not adopt any such change, and I doubt Louis XIX or Henri V (Chambord) will either. That’s another possible 50 years where France has the white flag and the monarchy. The Republic and Tricolor would likely be reduced to fringe symbols akin to the flag of the German Empire today in modern Germany.

Also to my understanding, the white flag was never popular among the general public during the Restoration. There's a reason France reverted back to the tricolor in 1830 and never looked back since. Even failing to restore the monarchy over restoring this exact white flag in 1870. The only ones it really appealed to were the Ultras, as seen for example by naming one of their main newspaper La Drapeau Blanc.
France reverted back to the tricolor because it was a symbol of the liberal movement—which Louis-Philippe represented as the son of Philippe Égalite. It was the flag of the revolution and the empire, and adored by republicans and Bonapartists. I guarantee you that the average worker in Paris or even the average peasant in the period of 1815-1830 likely didn’t give a fig about the flag—white or tricolor, it matters little when the government doesn’t represent or care about your interests. The Restoration (and even the July Monarchy) was not a period of sterility that some people wish to paint it as, merely sandwiched between the Napoleon’s. It was a genuinely interesting period where the idea of France’s monarchy and ancient history tried and failed to be reconciled with the ideals of the Revolution.

The failure of Chambord’s restoration hinged upon more than just the issue of the flag. Monarchists dominated the assembly in 1870, but it was split by faction: in reality, the Orléanists had the most seats, followed by the Legitimists; together they had a majority. Though the Orléanists accepted the idea of fusionism (that Chambord would be king and the Orléanist claimant would succeed him) there was still bad blood between both factions and the Orléanists / Count of Paris did what they could to advocate for their position over Chambord. If the Count of Paris could’ve succeeded over Chambord, he would’ve gladly taken the chance. While Chambord’s intransigence doomed his restoration, it was his living as long as he did that killed off the idea of the monarchy period. If he had died before 1877, the Count of Paris would’ve become king. The Third Republic was only established to wait for Chambord’s death—him living until 1883 cemented the Third Republic. The division of the monarchist movement doomed Chambord’s restoration just as much as his refusal to accept the tricolor.

Assuming the monarchy is here to stay and weathers the potholes of the 1840s, how would the Revolutionary and Napoleonic periods be perceived by the public and academic circles as they faded from living memory? An enduring Royal France with the legitimate Bourbon line, and the French Republic only really being a great, fiery, but still brief blip on the radar in the grand scheme of things is a fascinating world indeed. Maybe sort of how the English “Republican” experiment under Cromwell and his minions is perceived in the UK?
The Republican period / terror may end up being remembered as a dysfunctional blip, but the Napoleonic period could still end up lionized—especially if there’s a continued fusion and the Napoleonic elite continue to integrate closer into the old aristocracy. No doubt Napoleon will be seen Buonaparte and a usurper, but the deeds accomplished over the empire may still be looked upon favorably in the scheme of French power in Europe.
 
The failure of Chambord’s restoration hinged upon more than just the issue of the flag. Monarchists dominated the assembly in 1870, but it was split by faction: in reality, the Orléanists had the most seats, followed by the Legitimists; together they had a majority. Though the Orléanists accepted the idea of fusionism (that Chambord would be king and the Orléanist claimant would succeed him) there was still bad blood between both factions and the Orléanists / Count of Paris did what they could to advocate for their position over Chambord. If the Count of Paris could’ve succeeded over Chambord, he would’ve gladly taken the chance. While Chambord’s intransigence doomed his restoration, it was his living as long as he did that killed off the idea of the monarchy period. If he had died before 1877, the Count of Paris would’ve become king. The Third Republic was only established to wait for Chambord’s death—him living until 1883 cemented the Third Republic. The division of the monarchist movement doomed Chambord’s restoration just as much as his refusal to accept the tricolor.
Also, Henri V himself likely didn't care about flag issue as much as often made out, he even designed a compromise flag in his youth. I've heard it said that Henri was only using the flag issue to screw over the Bourbons who he hated and who would be his natural successors as he remained childless. Henri knew that the Orleanists wouldn't get enough support themselves for a restoration as long as he lived.
 
Also, Henri V himself likely didn't care about flag issue as much as often made out, he even designed a compromise flag in his youth. I've heard it said that Henri was only using the flag issue to screw over the Bourbons who he hated and who would be his natural successors as he remained childless. Henri knew that the Orleanists wouldn't get enough support themselves for a restoration as long as he lived.
Well, it is worth remembering that the compromise flag was designed in his youth. Unsure when he did it exactly (I want to say 1820s/1830s?) but it’s hard to say how Chambord’s psyche / psychology was affected by his long exile abroad and how that might have embittered him—especially the years spent at Frohsdorf awaiting to be recalled to the throne, an unsatisfactory marriage Maria-Theresa of Modena (Maria-Theresa had been by Chambord’s aunt, Madame Royale: Marie-Thérèse; she chose Maria-Theresa bc of her Catholic religion and bc the Duchy of Modena had not recognized Louis-Philippe; Maria Theresa was not… a looker, and some say that Chambord preferred her younger sister Maria Beatrix—the OTL Countess of Montizón). Regardless, by 1870-71 Chambord was middle aged and married to a middle aged wife who was possibly barren/sterile (Maria Theresa was never pregnant or suffered a miscarriage iirc–however we can’t really say today whether she was the “problem” or if the fault lay with Chambord.

Certainly people felt that he put too much credence into that flag issue, as Pius IX stated: “and all of that- over a scrap of paper!”

I’m sure issues with the Orléanists played a part in Chambord’s intransigence and his unwillingness to compromise, but in 1871 the Orléanists held 223 seats to the Legitimists 183, while the Republicans had 249—the monarchists certainly had a majority (together) but it seems that were definite more popular support among the monarchist contingent on the Orléanist side than with the Legitimists—though you are absolutely correct. Any success would’ve been contingent on them working together.
 
By 1848, assuming deaths are roughly the same
deaths wouldn't necessarily go the same, since Charles X and Angoulême were both ill with typhoid- Charles died, Angoulême survived.- which they contracted at their home in exile. Angoulême died of cancer- although I'm not sure what cancer- and spent the last few months in a forgetful blind haze (not unlike George III). Assuming that both deaths were "by-products"- Angoulême's cancer could've easily gone untreated due to lack of funds or medical expertise or depression (he had PTSD after all). Something I don't think would be the case if he still becomes king. By contrast, Charles could easily die in the Paris cholera epidemic of 1832.

I don't know if he would handle the situation that much better than Louis-Philippe did.
and why exactly wouldn't he? His tutor was a Napoléonic Republican- Joachim Barrande- who remained in Henri's employ- as a sort of personal treasurer- even after his dismissal. The chief criticism of Barrande from the circle around Charles X? Not his Napoléonic education or his republican credentials, but rather his "encouragement" of the king to "think like a merchant not as a king".

His initial support in 1848 came from the conservative Parti de l’Ordre, and of course the appeal / nostalgia of Bonapartism.
and the peasantry "gave themselves over wholesale to the red devil [socialism]"- per George Sand- after he reinstituted the wine/salt(?) tax which he had promised not to do. Napoléon le Petit's problem was that he tended to be "lukewarm" in most things. He championed Italian nationalism but defended the pope, he championed liberalism but had one of the more autocratic regimes, his dynasty as a parvenu meant the faubourg Saint-Germain stayed away, etc etc etc.
The White Flag though was never really an official flag. It was more of a royal standard of which there were multiple. Honestly I see them going back to the blue with the standard fleur de lis or the flag of Henry IV as those are the more practical ones.
Chambord's own proposal- from around the late 1820s/1830s looked something like this:
top-view-retroflag-count-henri-chambord-s-france-grunge-texture-french-patriot-travel-concept-no-flagpole-plan-plane-248158824.jpg

There's another version that mounts the fleurs-de-lis on the blue stripe of the tricolour and the chains of Navarre on the red, leaving the white stripe clear.

Given the stubbornness which the Count of Chambord had in 1870 over the flag, I do not anticipate France’s flag changing during this period.
Think about what Henri was ACTUALLY doing to the Orléans as revenge served cold. He HATED them. He knew they NEEDED him. Otherwise, they wouldn't be knocking on his door. Henri doesn't have armies or great wealth to make them suffer. But he made them suffer in a way far more subtle. He INSISTS on a flag. Its gone down in history as a trifle or a whim. It gets mocked.
But Henri knew what would happen if he accepted the crown. He'd reign but the Orléans would rule. Henri would be stuffed in some castle somewhere and trotted out for public events, but not much else. And when he died, the Orléans family who had caused his family SO much suffering , would claim the throne.
So, Henri played the long-game. He didn't OUTRIGHT refuse the Orléans help. But he INSISTED on the flag. People have called him stupid. Or stubborn. Maybe he was. Or maybe it was a brilliantly Macchiavellian move. With the "rapprochement" between he and the Orléans,they had tied their fortune to his. So what does Henri do? Henri LOATHES them. Knows that once he gets to Paris they will legally bind him hand and foot to name the comte de Paris as his heir.
He tells them "no flag, no king". What can the Orléans do? They're not powerful enough to stage a comeback on their own (otherwise France would be a monarchy). They can't back away from Chambord without losing face.

The offer of a throne and insisting on the flag was Chambord springing a trap (that the Orléans had walked into) withthe timing of a Swiss watch. By insistig on the flag, he didn't just screw himself out of a crown, but he knew damn well that the Orléans wouldn't be able to do diddly-squat so long as he was alive.

If it WAS a Macchiavellian move like I suspect...imagine the sort of king that man would be.
I've explained elsewhere at length why Chambord didn't bring this design out when offered the throne in the 1870s.

that would only happen if the Bourbons win a pyrrhic victory, with Charles forced to abdicate and his grandson Henri ruling under a more liberal Constitutional Monarchy.
see the suggestion that Charles could die in the 1832 cholera outbreak.

Complicated in the sense that it's too hard to draw/memorize,
if an 8-10yo Chambord could come up with the design above, I don't think that counts.

Maria Theresa was not… a looker, and some say that Chambord preferred her younger sister Maria Beatrix—the OTL Countess of Montizón
I've explained this at length elsewhere as well. Chambord's "first love" was Lili Mikhailovna (niece of Nikolai I). His aunt nixed that because she had bad memories of Alexander I. Then he tried for Carolina of Salerno- the emperor of Austria's niece- but her mom decided that Aumale (who'd also got the Condé fortune already earmarked for Henri) was a better option (double ouch, you not only lose your inheritance but also the girl you like). Next up to bat was Carolina of Naples (his mother's half-sister and later Carlist queen), but the negotiations foundered because of Queen Isabel II's disapproval of the match (due to French pressure). Cue the entry of Beatrice of Modena. She refused him to marry Juan de Montizon. By that point Henri was just a case of "I don't care" and they married him to Maria Teresa. Contrary to the commonly repeated fact that it was due to Modena not having recognized the July Monarchy, it was actually her dowry (Maria Teresa's uncle had left her the equivalent of £15 million, not including property, in his will).

Not only was Maria Teresa older than Chambord, she also suffered from gynaecological problems which rendered child-bearing difficult to well nigh impossible (depending on the source consulted), depression and was hardly the sort of person to capture a Bourbon male's attention. She was aware of these difficulties herself, since she commented to one: "Any Frenchman who is a royalist should wish for my death, since I can bear no children". Also, she was rumored to be hard of hearing, and her overbearing piety made the French court in exile dislike her. So much so, that one day when one of the ladies was to be her companion for their stroll, the girl bewailed her fate calling her queen a disagreeable old hag, and Maria Teresa with a sorrowful look, said to her: "For that I am truly sorry, my child".
Marie Therese de Austria-Este (1817-1886) was the eldest daughter of Francis IV, Duke of Modena. Her mother was her father's niece, so, technically, she was the offspring of an incestuous union. Her face was slightly marred at birth, so that one side appeared to droop a bit. She was sterile, a fact that was unknown at the time of her 1846 marriage to Henri V, Comte de Chambord. Henri married her after first being rejected by her younger sister, Marie Beatrice (who married Don Juan de Bourbon). The Comtesse de Chambord was known to be kind, dignified, and very pious. Despite her lack of beauty, she possessed a remarkable collection of jewelry, inherited from her husband's aunt, the Duchesse d'Angouleme (daughter of Marie Antoinette) and from her family in Modena. She also owned Frohsdorf, Puchheim and Ebenzweier in Austria. She did not support the Comte de Paris' claim to the French throne, much prefering the claim of her brother-in-law, Don Juan (Head of the Royal House of Bourbon after Chambord's death in 1883). The Comtesse spent her last years at the Levetzow-Lantieri Palace in Gorizia, Italy, where she died of heart problems in 1886. She is one of six Bourbons interred in the crypt of Castagnavizza just outside Gorizia. Her heirs included her nephew, Don Carlos de Bourbon, Duc de Madrid. Frohsdorf was left to Don Juan's son, Don Jaime de Bourbon, who died in 1931. Don Jaime's sister, Princesse Beatrice de Massimo-Bourbon, sold the property in 1941.
Rather than turn to a German princess, the royal matchmakers next concentrated on the Lorraine-Habsburg-Este House in Modena. Inevitably much opposition would have developed in Paris to any marriage of a prominent reigning family with an exiled prince. But while great concern would have been felt at the Palais Royale if, for instance, a Romanov princess had exchanged vows with Henri, a marriage with the House of Modena could scarcely be regarded as doing more than uniting the exiled family with a house which to all intents and purposes already recognized the elder branch of the family.
The Duke of Modena apparently expected that his elder daughter, Marie Thérèse, would go into a convent. But however unmarriagable she might have been, the Duchesse d'Angoulême and the Empress of Austria seem to have decided that she should marry the Comte de Chambord. The story that Metternich and Louis Philippe arranged this union, thinking that the rumored sterility of Marie Thérèse would bring an end to the elder Bourbon line, has no foundation, but its later currency well illustrates a frame of mind springing from dynastic rivalry. When asked whether she would be willing to marry Henri, she is supposed to have replied, "With joy!"-words which were reported to Henri, who, starved for joy, seems to have been doubly impressed. Moreover, she was described to Henri, correctly enough, as religious, with the result that he regarded her as the proper choice. Arrangements were soon made, and on 16 Nov 1846 they were married at Bruck-am-Mur in Styria, a marriage described by the Marquis de Belleval as the "prime obstacle to restoration of the monarch." This judgment may be a bit strong, but the fact the Comte de Chambord had no heir certainly had some bearing on his role as pretender. While he always listened politely to his wife, Marie Thérèse could not reciprocate because she was deaf. She was little inclined toward practical affairs, which she was apt to dismiss with religious platitudes, and of no direct political influence upon him. On the other hand, she was so haunted by the guillotine and her hatred of the Orleans that she certainly helped foster the hesitant atmosphere in which the Comte de Chambord was prone to drift. She seems to have feared restoration, its perils, and the demands which would have been made on her as Queen, and to have encouraged the Comte de Paris to be content in exile. She has been called son mauvais génie. In any case, while she was an obedient spouse, she had none of her husband's charm or regal qualities.
There were similarities and differences between the life of the Comte de Chambord and the exiled court at Frohsdorf and at Venice, but one of the unifying features was the presence of the Comtesse. She was always with him. While she was ever in the shadow of her husband, she cast a certain shadow of her own on him and the entourage. Her gloom was well-known. She once said: "The more one is a royalist, the more one should long for my death, since I have no children." And whatever rays of hope did come to her when assured she would be more fortunate in the Tuileries must have been fleeting, for she later commented: "It would be better for everyone if someone would kill me." Somewhat differing descriptions have been given of her appearance and grace, or lack of it. She was tall, had black hair, and her face was definately deformed at birth, one side appearing a bit smaller than the other. Her voice has been described as "unpleasant," and her timidity was very noticeable to the large number of people whom she had to receive. While altogether lacking in charm, she was dignified in spite of these detractions. Her conduct towards her husband was always correct, and in her way she was loving. Henri never complained of her, and his constancy and courtesy to his wife were notable. But while in a way she was an appropriate companion for him in exile, even a "Henri V en pantoufles," she lent an air of especial sadness to Henri's exile and was definately a major liability to him as the pretender.
Anyway, the asymmetry of Marie-Therese's face would have nothing to do with her sterility. And this, just for a very simple reason: this assymetry was not congenital. It's was only the consequence of her difficult birth. The obstetrician made a bad application of the forceps on her face and she was left like that...

But, despite your "feminist" argumentation, I'm sorry, it's more than probable that the sterility was her responsability, and not her husband's responsability...

Jean-François Chiappe, in his biography of the Comte de Chambord, report that Marie-Therese had gynecological problems since her very young age. After that, she had a difficult puberty, and all her life long, irregular and very painful menstruation...

Incidentally, "anyone married to Henri, who had all the personality and charisma of a bump on a log, would have been depressed", do you say. I don't know where you found that. It's very inexact. All the people who described the life in the intimity of Frohsdorf say the same thing: Henry was funny, cheerful, even "dazzling". With the crowned heads as well as with the small farmers. Especially when he was with his sister, the duchess of Parma. It was then "a firework of jokes, never nasty, but always funny". One day, an archiduchess was invited for a great dinner. He disguised his friend, the count of Damas, in a coachman, and when she arrived, he said to her: "Oh! Please forgive me, but my coachman's dream was to have dinner with an archiduchess, I could not refuse, I seated him at your side." The princess was upset and was sulking during all the dinner, and only after, Henry said the truth to her, who laughed a lot about this hoax, with all other guests.

One day, during a reception, everybody bowed deeply when he approched, and he said : "Oh, I see, this night, it's open ass!"...

But, for Marie-Therese, everybody is unanimous. She was absolutely sinister, and the worst is that she knew it... The comtesse de Chevigné, one day, hade to make a promenade with Marie-Therese. It was so sad that, overwhrought, she ended up saying out loud to herself (Marie-Therese was deaf too, since her young age... She was complete!) : "My God! What a bore!". But for once, Marie-Therese understood. She said :"My poor child! I'm sorry..."

To answer to Eric Lowe, in fact, Henry was in love with the grand-duchess Elisabeth of Russia, Nicolas I's niece ( grand-duke Michel's daughter), he met her in Jüterlock in 1843. The king of Prussia asked to his brother-in-law, the Czar, if he would be ok. Nicolas I was delighted, and authorized her niece's conversion to catholicism. But Marie-Therese, Henry's aunt (daugnter of Louis XVI), was opposed to this alliance. For the proud princess, Romanov were a too recent dynasty, definitively not prestigious enough for a future Queen of France... The talks between Henry and Nicolas were stopped. Anyway, Elisabeth died very young, but she most probably would have had time enough to give a child (and maybe a son?) to Henry... What a pity...
The Duchesse de Berri had little to no contact with either of her children and absolutely no say in their marriages: hence why both Henri and his sister were married off to rather lowly matches (Henri to a daughter of the Duke of Modena, whilst his sister married to the heir to Parma).
actually, by the time both her children's matches were arranged the duc d'Angoulême had died and Madame Royal had reconciled with the duchesse de Berri.

Edit: Sorry about how the above came out "stacked", they're from this discussion just picked the parts that were "relevant"
 
Top