PC - Israel created from german territory post WW2?

1)He would probably believe that the creation of this jewish state would improve the reputation of the URSS around the world, especially to show that, unlike Hitler, he was a friend of the jews
2)The new jewish state would clearpy cause ethnic tensions around the area and Stalin would love to use it to have more controll over his new conquests
Remember that in OTL he designed the borders between the various states specifically to increase this kind of incidents
3)Punish Germany and Poland even more
4)As you altrady pointed out he was deeply antisemitic : with this new state he would be able to costantly keep on eye on all jews
5)He was insane
Agree with everything but the insanity, his paranoia was reasonable in the context of the backstabing soviet elite, and his policy towards ethnic minorities was a mix of his prejudges and heartless pragmatism.
 
I looked into it in and Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Romania had around 500-600.000 Jews left in 1946. These could be have been used to fund the state. As these people are in general young (the Holocaust survivours was in general younger people), we would see a fast natural increase even with only near replacement level birth rate (it would give Yiddland around 2 million by 1989), and I expect the birth rate would be higher. So let's say Yiddland are set up in East Prussia, that would mean we would by 1989 see a population of 2-4 million people, which would place it on the same level as the other Baltic states. I expect a small number of Germans and Prussian Lithuanians would be allowed to stay, if they had been clearly anti-Nazi, simply because there will be a need for people who have experience in farming. In fact I would expect at first a number of Germans will be forced to stay as forced labour, and some of these will end up staying behind if they was as mentioned before clearly anti-Nazi before the war. But I expect at most these people will make up 10% of the population and likely just be Christian Yiddish speakers by modern day (they would likely call themselves Prussians). There will also be non-Jewish spouses of Jews, how the children of these couple will counted will likely be a little unclear, especially if they're Christians.

Post-1989 I expect that Yiddland will be one of the fastest growing East European countries, thanks to investment from Germany, Israel and USA. It will ikely early on see some emigration to Israel, but it will likely also see Russian Jews migrate to it, and as Israel continue having OTL trouble a number Israeli may emigrate to Yiddland. As such I expect a more stable population than the Baltic states. By 2018 it will likely have a GDP per capita of 30.000$ and be a EU member, it will be major tourist destination of American Jews. It will likely have a rather good relationship with Germany (through sometimes with a shadow over it), while I expect its relationship with Poland to be more cold. Lithuania would likely fall between these two in their relationship with Yiddland.
 
I looked into it in and Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Romania had around 500-600.000 Jews left in 1946. These could be have been used to fund the state. As these people are in general young (the Holocaust survivours was in general younger people), we would see a fast natural increase even with only near replacement level birth rate (it would give Yiddland around 2 million by 1989), and I expect the birth rate would be higher. So let's say Yiddland are set up in East Prussia, that would mean we would by 1989 see a population of 2-4 million people, which would place it on the same level as the other Baltic states. I expect a small number of Germans and Prussian Lithuanians would be allowed to stay, if they had been clearly anti-Nazi, simply because there will be a need for people who have experience in farming. In fact I would expect at first a number of Germans will be forced to stay as forced labour, and some of these will end up staying behind if they was as mentioned before clearly anti-Nazi before the war. But I expect at most these people will make up 10% of the population and likely just be Christian Yiddish speakers by modern day (they would likely call themselves Prussians). There will also be non-Jewish spouses of Jews, how the children of these couple will counted will likely be a little unclear, especially if they're Christians.

Post-1989 I expect that Yiddland will be one of the fastest growing East European countries, thanks to investment from Germany, Israel and USA. It will ikely early on see some emigration to Israel, but it will likely also see Russian Jews migrate to it, and as Israel continue having OTL trouble a number Israeli may emigrate to Yiddland. As such I expect a more stable population than the Baltic states. By 2018 it will likely have a GDP per capita of 30.000$ and be a EU member, it will be major tourist destination of American Jews. It will likely have a rather good relationship with Germany (through sometimes with a shadow over it), while I expect its relationship with Poland to be more cold. Lithuania would likely fall between these two in their relationship with Yiddland.
I was expecting Stalin to deport the soviet jews to euro israel and outlaw emigration, also I was expecting to put them in the rest of german pommerania or holstein if the soviets get there early, if in pommerania the would border poland and the ddr, in holstein they border both germanies and control the canal. In both cases the would border other puppets and in both cases they would be the most loyal puppet of the USSR, being neighbors to at least one germany, even more if they border the irredentist wester germany.
 
No, because a) it won't be the only option on the table even if you have Britain do something nuts like outright rescind the Balfour Declaration, and b) "we're going to give you your homeland right next to the country that just tried to exterminate you, on land that they think rightfully belongs to them" is a self-evidently terrible offer that makes even Uganda look good.

And what happens when that decade or two is over? We have the benefit of hindsight, they live in a world where six years ago Germany launched a war of conquest driven by irredentism and took the opportunity to kill as many Jews they could get their hands on in the process. Better safe than sorry, because next time Germany might finish the job, and they don't know that there won't be a next time.
you do realize that no one would allow an expansionist let alone an anti semetic one to return right and that in order to even reunite Germany was made to agree to renounce its eastern claims so you won't get a Germany capable of doing what you describe unless they give up claims on their eastern lands. (they would be stuck in a catch 22)
 
I was expecting Stalin to deport the soviet jews to euro israel and outlaw emigration, also I was expecting to put them in the rest of german pommerania or holstein if the soviets get there early, if in pommerania the would border poland and the ddr, in holstein they border both germanies and control the canal. In both cases the would border other puppets and in both cases they would be the most loyal puppet of the USSR, being neighbors to at least one germany, even more if they border the irredentist wester germany.

Holstein are a unusual shitty choice for a alternative Israel. It's a very small area. The region only serve two purposes in modern time, a extended suburb for hamburg and as a autobahn to Denmark. The canal are pretty much just a shortcut for Hamburg to the Baltic, which would grow a lot less important with a communist country being placed between Hamburg and Denmark, removing the importance of Hamburg as a export port for goods from Jutland.
 
you do realize that no one would allow an expansionist let alone an anti semetic one to return right and that in order to even reunite Germany was made to agree to renounce its eastern claims so you won't get a Germany capable of doing what you describe unless they give up claims on their eastern lands. (they would be stuck in a catch 22)
I was considering things from the perspective of the European Jews in 1945, the kind of people this alt-Israel would be trying to attract. For obvious reasons, such individuals will not be aware of the demands that were made on Germany before it was allowed to reunite IOTL, and given their experience with Germany's rearmament and expansion during the '30s, will be understandably dubious about the Allied powers putting their money where their mouth is if Germany threatens to become a danger again. I also find it hard to believe that any Fourth Reich would consider itself bound to respect any renunciations of territorial claims made by any of its predecessor governments.
 
I think carving a Jewish state out of the remains of Nazi Germany is plausible if the POD is early enough. First, the Ottoman Empire would either be on the Allied side or stay neutral during WW1, which reduces the chances of Britain taking Palestine and encouraging Jewish Zionists to immigrate there. Then after the rise and fall of Nazi Germany during WW2, Stalin decides for whatever reason to create a small Jewish state somewhere in East Prussia, and sends all the Jewish refugees living under Soviet occupation to populate it. Of course it would be a communist puppet state aligned with the Soviet Union, but with no other options and a chance to get some revenge on the Germans, at least a significant amount of Jews decide to take up the offer.
 
First, the Ottoman Empire would either be on the Allied side or stay neutral during WW1, which reduces the chances of Britain taking Palestine and encouraging Jewish Zionists to immigrate there

The British didn't encourage Zionists to immigrate to Palestine. Shortly after the Balfour Declaration, they issued a statement (the Churchill White Paper) clarifying that they were not supportive of a Jewish state in the area, and they severely curtailed immigration.

Honestly, I'd say that they were arguably worse for Zionism than the Ottomans who at least weren't very good at enforcing border controls (on the other hand, they expelled everyone from Tel Aviv and Jaffa during WWI, so...).
 
The trouble is that Zionism was already well underway by the time of WWII. In order to create a Jewish state in Europe, the POD would have to come with Herzl. Perhaps instead of Palestine/Eretz Yisrael or Argentina or Uganda or wherever, he decides that the Jewish homeland should be in Eastern European Galicia. However, this would likely result in a Jewish homeland taking hold after the partition of Austria-Hungary in WWI, not WWII, and during WWII it would likely be completely obliterated. Other Europeans would see Jews as stealing their land, and there would be less Jews being hidden in the homes of gentiles. As a result the Holocaust would probably be much worse than OTL, and the idea of a Jewish state would be effectively dead as Jews would give up on Galicia and leave in mass, most likely to the US. It would end in failure.
 
The British didn't encourage Zionists to immigrate to Palestine. Shortly after the Balfour Declaration, they issued a statement (the Churchill White Paper) clarifying that they were not supportive of a Jewish state in the area, and they severely curtailed immigration.

Honestly, I'd say that they were arguably worse for Zionism than the Ottomans who at least weren't very good at enforcing border controls (on the other hand, they expelled everyone from Tel Aviv and Jaffa during WWI, so...).

The trouble is that Zionism was already well underway by the time of WWII. In order to create a Jewish state in Europe, the POD would have to come with Herzl. Perhaps instead of Palestine/Eretz Yisrael or Argentina or Uganda or wherever, he decides that the Jewish homeland should be in Eastern European Galicia. However, this would likely result in a Jewish homeland taking hold after the partition of Austria-Hungary in WWI, not WWII, and during WWII it would likely be completely obliterated. Other Europeans would see Jews as stealing their land, and there would be less Jews being hidden in the homes of gentiles. As a result the Holocaust would probably be much worse than OTL, and the idea of a Jewish state would be effectively dead as Jews would give up on Galicia and leave in mass, most likely to the US. It would end in failure.

Well from my understanding of the situation, although the Zionist ideology began in the 19th century, it wasn't until after the Ottomans lost control over the Levant did Jews really start migrating to Palestine in large numbers (which led to the beginning of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict). If the region was still under Turkish or Arab control, it would make the chances of Jews creating their own country over there extremely unlikely.
 
Well from my understanding of the situation, although the Zionist ideology began in the 19th century, it wasn't until after the Ottomans lost control over the Levant did Jews really start migrating to Palestine in large numbers (which led to the beginning of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict). If the region was still under Turkish or Arab control, it would make the chances of Jews creating their own country over there extremely unlikely.

I think it has less to do with the regime change than simple timing. The oldest Zionist settlement were one generation old and Tel Aviv was all of 10 years old when the British took over. The Technion (a technical institute) was founded in 1912 and the Hebrew University opened in 1918, but obviously had been in the works for a while by then. And the global economic malaise and increasing Soviet oppression that made migration to Palestine more and more attractive would happen anyway, to say nothing of the increasing anti-Semitism that led to an uptick in German immigration in the 30s.

Considering that the Ottomans weren't super opposed to Zionist settlement while they still controlled the region, it seem very plausible to me that they'd continue not to care as long as the Zionists paid their taxes (and, indeed, created a great deal of wealth as they brought in new technology and agricultural methods, skilled labor, and foreign investment). They might even support it as a counter-balance to Arab nationalism if it gets off the ground without British support.
 
I think this would be a lot more plausible if there wasn't already a large presence of Jews who had been creating state-like institutions for the past 20-30 years in an area of obvious ethnic significance.

The idea of a non-Levantine Jewish homeland is something requires a much earlier POD.
 
I think this would be a lot more plausible if there wasn't already a large presence of Jews who had been creating state-like institutions for the past 20-30 years in an area of obvious ethnic significance.

The idea of a non-Levantine Jewish homeland is something requires a much earlier POD.

Agreed and so it rules out German territory.
 
I think it has less to do with the regime change than simple timing. The oldest Zionist settlement were one generation old and Tel Aviv was all of 10 years old when the British took over. The Technion (a technical institute) was founded in 1912 and the Hebrew University opened in 1918, but obviously had been in the works for a while by then. And the global economic malaise and increasing Soviet oppression that made migration to Palestine more and more attractive would happen anyway, to say nothing of the increasing anti-Semitism that led to an uptick in German immigration in the 30s.

Considering that the Ottomans weren't super opposed to Zionist settlement while they still controlled the region, it seem very plausible to me that they'd continue not to care as long as the Zionists paid their taxes (and, indeed, created a great deal of wealth as they brought in new technology and agricultural methods, skilled labor, and foreign investment). They might even support it as a counter-balance to Arab nationalism if it gets off the ground without British support.

Well immigration is one thing, but separatism is another ordeal, and for obvious reasons the Ottoman government wouldn't tolerate anyone trying to secede, whether it be Jews, Arabs, Kurds, or Armenians. Though of course considering how weak they'd gotten and the likelihood of a collapse even without WW1, anything could happen. Though I'm not sure if the Jews would really be in a position to create Israel without the chaotic chain of events caused by the British Mandate of Palestine and the Holocaust; if an Ottoman civil war breaks out, the area would be far more likely to end up under Arab control.
 
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