PC: Islamic Ireland?

Was there at any point an attempt to try and spread the Islamic faith in Ireland? If there were, is there any way to make them successful (and by successful, I mean the majority of Ireland converts to Sunni Islam).

And if there wasn't, what sort of POD/Chain of events would be required for this to happen?

And finally, what sort of effect would this have on Ireland, as well as its interactions with its neighbors?
 
I remember ages ago reading about two Islamic traders visiting Viking Dublin, to buy slaves, when it was the largest slade trading centre in Northern Europe.

They both despised the place as virtually useless bog and a miserable land of constant rain.

Though Vikings and Anglo-Saxons ended up with lots of islamic silver due to extensive slave trading, various coin smiths of northeren europe began copying the high quality Abbasaid coins.
So there were many coins of Anglo-Saxon and Viking Kings with Arabic writing around the edges due to the coin makers thinking it was a just a design.

Technically you could say that Ireland and various Viking and Anglo-saxon kings were Islamic since they spent years proclaiming that Allah was great.
 
Stop the Reconquista? Or stop the islamic move North from stopping? There is a muslim europe timeline somewhere I think.
 
No St. Patrick maybe? Without a firmly entrenched Christian tradition when Muslim traders arrive you might have a better chance. Though England is still likely to conquer the island and you'd probably see an Irish Inquisition to rival the Spanish one.
 
  1. This hardly prevents Christianity from becoming firmly established in Ireland.
  2. A POD this early likely results in no Islam.
Okay how does no Saint Patrick result in no Islam? I get Islam had very specific causes but I doubt some preacher on an island half a world away mattered much at all about its creation.
 
  1. This hardly prevents Christianity from becoming firmly established in Ireland.
  2. A POD this early likely results in no Islam.

Granted there would be other missionaries at some point. The idea was to take away the earliest and delay the adoption of Christianity since the Caliphate seemed to have an easier time converting pagans than Christians, just as the Christians had an easier time converting pagans than Muslims.

Also a POD 300 years before half a world away in a place with very limited links to the outside world hardly seems like enough to prevent the formation of Islam.
 

Philip

Donor
Granted there would be other missionaries at some point.

Christianity was already present in Ireland before St Patrick.

The idea was to take away the earliest and delay the adoption of Christianity

Removing Patrick does not accomplish this. You need to come up with a more realistic manner of preventing Christianity from spreading to Ireland.

Also a POD 300 years before half a world away in a place with very limited links to the outside world hardly seems like enough to prevent the formation of Islam.
Okay how does no Saint Patrick result in no Islam? I get Islam had very specific causes but I doubt some preacher on an island half a world away mattered much at all about its creation.
Three hundred years is 9-10 generations, agreed? Just the randomness of meiosis makes it extremely unlikely that Mohammed is born.

However, if you want something more direct, consider this flow:


  1. Ireland is delayed in becoming Christian
  2. Therefore, there is no St Columbanus
  3. Therefore, he never moves from Ireland to Continental Europe.
  4. Therefore, many Germanics (especially Franks and Lombards) that converted to Catholicism OTL do not ITTL.
  5. (From 3) Therefore, he Columbanus never interacts with Pope Gregory concerning the Three Chapters.
  6. Therefore, (possibly) the Three Chapters controversy turns out differently.
  7. Therefore, relations between the Miaphysite, Chalcedonian, and Nestorian Christians are altered.
Either 4 or 7 will have dramatic effects on the Roman Empire, which in turn, effect the merchants of Arabia. This could easily prevent Mohammed from being born. Even if we permit that he is born, changes in the Empire will certainly affect the spread of Islam. And that's just due to Columbanus.
 
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Christianity was already present in Ireland before St Patrick.



Removing Patrick does not accomplish this. You need to come up with a more realistic manner of preventing Christianity from spreading to Ireland.



Three hundred years is 9-10 generations, agreed? Just the randomness of meiosis makes it extremely unlikely that Mohammed is born.

However, if you want something more direct, consider this flow:


  1. Ireland is delayed in becoming Christian
  2. Therefore, there is no St Columbanus
  3. Therefore, he never moves from Ireland to Continental Europe.
  4. Therefore, many Germanics (especially Franks and Lombards) that converted to Catholicism OTL do not ITTL.
  5. (From 3) Therefore, he Columbanus never interacts with Pope Gregory concerning the Three Chapters.
  6. Therefore, (possibly) the Three Chapters controversy turns out differently.
  7. Therefore, relations between the Miaphysite, Chalcedonian, and Nestorian Christians are altered.
Either 4 or 7 will have dramatic effects on the Roman Empire, which in turn, effect the merchants of Arabia. This could easily prevent Mohammed from being born. Even if we permit that he is born, changes in the Empire will certainly affect the spread of Islam. And that's just due to Columbanus.

Patrick was not the first to introduce Christianity to Ireland, true, but he is credited with beginning a large monastic movement on the island and the change from Christianity being in the minority to the majority occurred during his ministry. Records of the events are unreliable so if you don't want to credit him for this change that's fair.

As for your specific example, Columbanus was born only 30 year before Mohammed was born. He traveled to the continent after Mohammed was born and only 20 years before he received his vision from God which I'm going to use as a starting point for the development of the Muslim faith. Are you arguing that the lack of a dozen Irish monks in the court of the King of Burgundy is going to have a noticeable effect on the life of a merchant in Arabia in less than 20 years?
 
The problem comes when England becomes Norman. You now have a militant Christian Kingdom very close (who owe the Pope a favour for blessing their expedition) and any muslim allies a very long way away and probably more interested in fighting the Christians in Spain than sailing to Ireland for a fight.

I can see a crusade to Ireland very high up of the Norman's to do list.
 

Philip

Donor
Patrick was not the first to introduce Christianity to Ireland, true, but he is credited with beginning a large monastic movement on the island and the change from Christianity being in the minority to the majority occurred during his ministry.
I think whomever was sent to Ireland would have accomplished roughly the same. You can not stop the spread of Christianity to Ireland by removing one man in the 5th Century.

You will need to provide a much more reasonable explanation of how to prevent the conversion of Ireland.

Are you arguing that the lack of a dozen Irish monks in the court of the King of Burgundy is going to have a noticeable effect on the life of a merchant in Arabia in less than 20 years?
I am arguing that (a) Mohammad will never be born due to simple probability theory (you seem to have glossed over that fact) and (b) that any POD preventing the spread of Christianity to Ireland in the 5th Century is going to affect the Empire for the next 200 years, thus likely changing the situation in Arabia. The rise of Islam was very dependent on the situation in Arabia, Rome, and Persia. Two hundred years of altered development will make the strange timing of OTL unlikely to be repeated.

As for Columbanus, since he interacted with Gregory concerning the Three Chapters, among other items, he does have the chance to alter the dynamics between Christian groups in the Eastern Empire that could quite easily alter the progress of war of Byzantine-Sassanid War (602-628). Changes in this war will certainly affect the lives of merchants in Arabia. I don't know if it would happen for certain or is even likely, but it is certainly possible.
 
Was there at any point an attempt to try and spread the Islamic faith in Ireland?

No. Ireland was too far from the nearest Muslim held land (Spain). Muslims are not going to attempt to invade Ireland before they are able to conquer France and Britain. Furthermore, there isn't going to be some itinerant Muslim preacher who reaches there and converts everyone en masse. Islam traditionally was spread by conquest. Muslim rule came first, and eventually conversions followed over the centuries.

You do have situations where Islam did spread peacefully in the wake of trade (like on the East Coast of Africa or Indonesia), but those were areas heavily frequented by Muslim merchants because they had stuff people wanted lots of (spices, ivory, slaves). It took a long time before those areas had enough contact that Islam became important. Ireland has nothing like except perhaps slaves, but Muslims were already getting them from Africans and Slavs. Lots of easier sources for slaves than building fleets to grab the Irish.

If there were, is there any way to make them successful (and by successful, I mean the majority of Ireland converts to Sunni Islam).

Probably not unless you make the Muslims able to conquer France and become the dominant power in northwestern Europe. But that would probably be a much larger POD than you are anticipating as Ireland would only be small part of greater Islamic Europe.

It took a long time before Islam became the majority religion in many places and even longer before the Christian population became insignificant. Even if a Muslim presence became active in Ireland, the population is unlikely to convert to become majority Muslim for several centuries.

And if there wasn't, what sort of POD/Chain of events would be required for this to happen?)

You need an Islamic conquest of Western Europe. If you don't, I don't see how a Muslim Ireland is viable.

And finally, what sort of effect would this have on Ireland, as well as its interactions with its neighbors?

If for some bizarre reason, Ireland became Muslim while the rest of Europe remained Christian, we will probably see an invasion of Ireland that rechristianizes the island, much like what happened in Sicily and Spain (and briefly in Syria) starting in the 11th century. If so, Ireland will either become part of the English kingdom, or perhaps an independent country ruled by Normans who set up their own kingdom.
 
What if the defense of France fails? If the Cordoba Caliphate takes over large sections of France they may attempt to go accross the channel next.
 

Philip

Donor
Whichever was the one who managed to invade France but failed to conquer it.
That would be the Umayyad Caliphate. They don't have much of a chance either. Even if they succeeded at Tours, there is no guarantee they would hold land in France, especially northern France. They also had to deal with the Abbasids.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
That would be the Umayyad Caliphate. They don't have much of a chance either. Even if they succeeded at Tours, there is no guarantee they would hold land in France, especially northern France. They also had to deal with the Abbasids.


That seems very pessimistic. If Tours devastating enough, Martel killed, and Merovingian collapse. After Abbasid raise in Arabia and Persia, France will be battleground between disorganised Christian defender and disorganised Muslim raider. Muslim will still have a chance to succeed.
 
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