PC: (How) Could John de Balliol Be Successful as King of Scots? Found a Lasting Dynasty?

What it says on the box. Is there any way that John de Balliol could somehow be successful in becoming/reamining king of Scots? Any ideas? @VVD0D95 @FriendlyGhost @procrastinating2much
Edward I is counseled and eventually convinced to not be as heavy-handed with Scotland. So while Edward will still maintain his own immediate supremacy over Scotland and expects homage for any and all lands Scottish kings and nobles hold on England, in order to secure peace and normalcy, Edward goes the extra mile to support John as king and brokers a treaty by marrying his youngest daughter Elizabeth of Rhuddlan to Edward Balliol, with Elizabeth's very birth location a stark reminder to the Scots just what may happen if they decide to act up or step out of line. So Edward now secures himself as the future grandfather of two different kings, is more hands off in his dealings with Scotland, and most importantly, avoids the Auld Alliance from ever getting signed.

Granted, this was a much more bitter, parsimonious Edward in OTL that was negotiating here, so perhaps a butterfly as simple as his first wife Eleanor of Castile living a few more years makes him more reasonable.
 
Edward I is counseled and eventually convinced to not be as heavy-handed with Scotland. So while Edward will still maintain his own immediate supremacy over Scotland and expects homage for any and all lands Scottish kings and nobles hold on England, in order to secure peace and normalcy, Edward goes the extra mile to support John as king and brokers a treaty by marrying his youngest daughter Elizabeth of Rhuddlan to Edward Balliol, with Elizabeth's very birth location a stark reminder to the Scots just what may happen if they decide to act up or step out of line. So Edward now secures himself as the future grandfather of two different kings, is more hands off in his dealings with Scotland, and most importantly, avoids the Auld Alliance from ever getting signed.

Granted, this was a much more bitter, parsimonious Edward in OTL that was negotiating here, so perhaps a butterfly as simple as his first wife Eleanor of Castile living a few more years makes him more reasonable.

Problem with the Elizabeth of Rhuddlan marriage to Edward de Balliol is that she was betrothed (basically from birth) to the count of Holland, with the intention of making up the marriage plan frustrated by her brother, Alphonso's death (Alphonso had been betrothed to Margaret(?) of Holland when he died). Otherwise, I like the idea.
 
I think the best way is to have Edward I die in the 1290s the regency for Edward ii will have it’s owb issues which likely mean that balliol can consolidate power by the time the regency in England is done

So Edward I dies before the Constitutional Crises of the mid-late 1290s, that could have interesting effects in England as well, no? Since likely as not, Edward II winds up married to his OTL stepmother, Marguerite de France.
 
So Edward I dies before the Constitutional Crises of the mid-late 1290s, that could have interesting effects in England as well, no? Since likely as not, Edward II winds up married to his OTL stepmother, Marguerite de France.
I think so yes, and indeed it does which changes a lot
 
He avoids angering Edward I by being a good little Client King while quietly building his own power base. When Edward I dies he rebels, captures Edward II, ransoms him to the Queen of England (and/or her lover) for Scotland's independence, Northumberland and County Durham, sells Queen of England 1 red hot poker and the services of some brawny men. Edward II gets ret hot enema.
 
He avoids angering Edward I by being a good little Client King while quietly building his own power base. When Edward I dies he rebels, captures Edward II, ransoms him to the Queen of England (and/or her lover) for Scotland's independence, Northumberland and County Durham, sells Queen of England 1 red hot poker and the services of some brawny men. Edward II gets ret hot enema.

Lol
Is the good little client king part possible? I get the impression that Edward I regarded the Scots' Independence Wars more as rebels against their rightful king [of England/Britain] rather than he particularly cared too much about who was king of Scots (i.e. that he would've presumably acted as he did with Balliol had the king been a Bruce/Comyn/MacWhatever). Or have I got it totally mixed up?
 
That's my impression as well, and he did the same with the Welsh. He wanted to be High King of Britain and the lesser Kings and Princes could run their countries so long as they paid due homage to him.
 
Problem with the Elizabeth of Rhuddlan marriage to Edward de Balliol is that she was betrothed (basically from birth) to the count of Holland, with the intention of making up the marriage plan frustrated by her brother, Alphonso's death (Alphonso had been betrothed to Margaret(?) of Holland when he died). Otherwise, I like the idea.
I think for a situation like this, Edward and the surviving Eleanor negotiate a way to buy out the betrothal agreement in favor of this new marriage which would secure England's northern border. Taken from another point of view, this could also be seen as trying to save a marriage agreement between Edward's son and Margaret of Norway that ended up getting scrapped.

In the end, seeing their daughter as a Queen Consort eventually may be too good a prize to pass up and I feel they would try and do this in favor of a Holland match. Not sure what else they can do here, but I do know that in OTL, Elizabeth was very reluctant to go forward with the marriage and didn't even travel to Holland until much later on, shortly before her husband ended up dying. This is a far more prestigious marriage for her just by virtue of John having a crown on his head and his son being the new heir. Besides, Count Floris of Holland seemed to have been a pretty erratic character, having claimed the throne of Scotland himself in OTL and being checked several times out of his warmongering by Edward himself before it looks like Edward went full mafia Don and arranged Floris' later murder. A major bone would have to be thrown Floris' way then if he faces the double humiliation of losing his own claim while his son loses his intended.

Eleanor was also an extremely shrewd negotiator in her own right, so as part of the marriage alliance, she arranges for several Scottish castles and holdings to be transferred to Elizabeth as part of her dower assignment, much like Eleanor received when she married Edward and further expanded on to build her own property empire. And in the end, Edward of Caernarfon marries the woman who would end up being his stepmother in OTL in Margaret of France.
 
I've been thinking a bit on this. Robert the Bruce's second marriage to Elizabeth de Burgh was arranged by Edward I (IIRC), who was a close friend to the father of the bride. Assuming a birthyear of 1284 for Elizabeth, that makes her a year younger than Edward de Balliol. What if he were to suggest Elizabeth de Burgh instead? Especially if Isabella of Mar were to survive?
 
I've been thinking a bit on this. Robert the Bruce's second marriage to Elizabeth de Burgh was arranged by Edward I (IIRC), who was a close friend to the father of the bride. Assuming a birthyear of 1284 for Elizabeth, that makes her a year younger than Edward de Balliol. What if he were to suggest Elizabeth de Burgh instead? Especially if Isabella of Mar were to survive?
I still think it would be more beneficial to Edward to have his own daughter as the future Queen Consort of Scotland, suddenly the most prestigious marriage he and TTL Eleanor have ever negotiated for any of their children. Elizabeth de Burgh though could be offered up to Count John of Holland, Elizabeth's previous fiancee as recompense, the de Burghs were pretty wealthy themselves.
 
suddenly the most prestigious marriage he and TTL Eleanor have ever negotiated for any of their children.

Not actually, since their elder daughters, Joan was supposed to wind up married to the son of King Rudolf of Germany (the Habsburg prince drowned because he decided - depending on which version you believe - to either go sailing when it was foggy or skating when the ice was partway thawed. Eitherway, he wound up arse over kettles in the drink), while Eleanor (OTL countess of Bar) was originally supposed to be queen of Aragon. None of these royal/quasi-imperial matches lacked in prestige. Both grooms simply decided that dying was more important than getting married (or maybe they thought it was better to be dead than wed)
 
Not actually, since their elder daughters, Joan was supposed to wind up married to the son of King Rudolf of Germany (the Habsburg prince drowned because he decided - depending on which version you believe - to either go sailing when it was foggy or skating when the ice was partway thawed. Eitherway, he wound up arse over kettles in the drink), while Eleanor (OTL countess of Bar) was originally supposed to be queen of Aragon. None of these royal/quasi-imperial matches lacked in prestige. Both grooms simply decided that dying was more important than getting married (or maybe they thought it was better to be dead than wed)
And now they have a third crack at it to make a royal marriage stick. They have to jump on it if two previous royal marriages fell through because groom "unavailability".
 
Alright, say Elizabeth of Rhuddlan and Edward de Balliol get hitched. Edward IIRC still attempted to meddle in Hollandic affairs even after the marriage contract was agreed. Is he going to do the same in Scotland?
 
Alright, say Elizabeth of Rhuddlan and Edward de Balliol get hitched. Edward IIRC still attempted to meddle in Hollandic affairs even after the marriage contract was agreed. Is he going to do the same in Scotland?

He might try to, though he might be more concerned with France at this point, especially as tensions over Gascony heat up.
 
I think the best way is to have Edward I die in the 1290s the regency for Edward ii will have it’s owb issues which likely mean that balliol can consolidate power by the time the regency in England is done
I agree. If Ed I dies in about 1292, he won't have time to make the increasingly egregious demands he made of John. At the latest, he would need to die before 1294 and the start of his OTL war with France over Gascony, as it was his demand for support from John as his 'feudal inferior' which precipitated the Auld Alliance and thus Ed I's invasion of Scotland.
 
He might try to, though he might be more concerned with France at this point, especially as tensions over Gascony heat up.

ISTR that his ambitions in Gascony were frustrated somewhat by him getting bogged down in Scotland.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-i-doesnt-get-bogged-down-in-scotland.433637/

I agree. If Ed I dies in about 1292, he won't have time to make the increasingly egregious demands he made of John. At the latest, he would need to die before 1294 and the start of his OTL war with France over Gascony, as it was his demand for support from John as his 'feudal inferior' which precipitated the Auld Alliance and thus Ed I's invasion of Scotland.

So an earlier death for Edward I and Edward II marrying Marguerite de France; peace over Gascony (or at least a less charged scenario than OTL) and perhaps a more stable Scotland?
 
ISTR that his ambitions in Gascony were frustrated somewhat by him getting bogged down in Scotland.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-i-doesnt-get-bogged-down-in-scotland.433637/



So an earlier death for Edward I and Edward II marrying Marguerite de France; peace over Gascony (or at least a less charged scenario than OTL) and perhaps a more stable Scotland?

This is very true, I imagine that without Scotland causing him issues, he might be able to move more power over to Gascony
 
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