PC: Greco-Romans Assimilating Conquered Peoples

Do the Greek rulers in the Hellenic Kingdoms (Selucid Empire, Ptolemaic Egypt particularly) have a shot at assimilating their subjects to Greek culture and some form of Greek language? Separately, but related - could the Romans conceivably assimilate the Germanic peoples (assuming a more favorable POD in Augustus's conquest of Germania) such that the former empire maintains a higher degree of linguistic and cultural unity after 476?

I'm guessing the Romans have a better chance since they seemed to have the stronger imperial institutions than the Greek ruling class that was installed in the former Achaemenid territories.
 
Do the Greek rulers in the Hellenic Kingdoms (Selucid Empire, Ptolemaic Egypt particularly) have a shot at assimilating their subjects to Greek culture and some form of Greek language? Separately, but related - could the Romans conceivably assimilate the Germanic peoples
Both of these happened in otl


such that the former empire maintains a higher degree of linguistic and cultural unity after 476?
You need someone to reunite the empire
 
Both of those kinda happened in the former Macedonian Empire though. Greek became a very important language for the function of these kingdoms so much so that the Romans largely left everything as it was when they conquered the east.

And while Latin didn't absorb the Germanic languages, it definitely absorbed the Celtic ones. In just 400 years the Gauls and Iberians went from largely celtic speaking barbarians to romance speaking citizens.
 
This happened in OTL, All of the romance countries were conquered by Germanic tribes who ended up assimilating into Roman population.
This is only half true. There was a cross-assimilation that occurred. It was more akin to the mixture of societies that occurred in Bronze Age Mesopotamia between so-called Sumerian and Akkadian speakers into a relatively unified Akkadian-Mesopotamian civilization. The cultural assimilation that occurred in Europe was such that both Germanic society and cultural norms changed enormously Roman traditions, cultural outlook and society and the same is true in the other way around. Such that before relatively modern times, such distinctions are meaningless. One cannot imagine the shock of a Roman citizen in year 30 BCE at seeing so-called Romans in year 400 CE in Gaul and or peoples residing in Italy year 780 CE. This is not to say that these peoples are not Roman, but it is critical to make the note that Germanic cultural influence upon the Latin world in Europe was immense, at least excluding Romania and so forth.
 
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One cannot imagine the shock of a Roman citizen in year 30 BCE at seeing so-called Romans in year 400 CE in Gaul and or peoples residing in Italy year 780 CE. This is not to say that these peoples are not Roman, but it is critical to make the note that Germanic cultural influence upon the Latin world in Europe was immense, at least excluding Romania and so forth.
That is very interesting. Can you provide couple examples?
 
I had an idea if the Roman upper classes upon conquest of Greece and Alexander's successor states could abandon Latin and adopt Greek culture fully.

John meant that the Roman world changed really a lot between the times of Julius Caesar (what most people imagine when they think of "Rome") and the time of the Late Roman Empire. To such a degree that Caesar would probably not even recognize it as his own country. Even Latin as spoken in 400 AD would be closer to modern Romance languages than to Classical Latin of Cicero which IIRC was based on Latin as spoken approx 200 BC.
 
It would be interesting if Alexander lived longer and was able to Hellenize a significant portion of the Bedouin tribes in Arabia
 
That is very interesting. Can you provide couple examples?
Well in regards to Italy, for one thing, naming conventions of the upper class changed quite significantly and presumably the rural population were also adopting names for which we would call Germanic. As close to the city of Rome as the House of Segni in the Middle Ages, we have reports from said family of primarily Germanic names such as:

-Rainier
-Tharasmund
-Sinibald
-Richard
-Ronald
-Henry
-Aldwin
etc...

Lombard kings and nobility near universally used Germanic names, long after their speech patterns had become Latin based with Germanic influence. Even the clergy were using these new names, that would have been unheard of in Italy during the years 100-200 CE when Germanic peoples would be more likely to take Latin names. In all lands, customary law dominated over older types of law. Petitions and codes of custom were deriving more from post-Germanic customs and European military codes of conduct such as chivalry and the associated ideals for what warriors were to embark upon, hold more in common with that of what could be described of the Germanic warriors for whom Rome utilized. Rather than the disciplined mores maiorum and the codes of conduct originally displayed for warriors employed by the Romans. Indeed, discipline was no virtue it seems among the warrior elite of Medieval Europe in any area until quite some time later. Looting and plunder alongside massed heavy cavalry usage also carried the day.

Indeed, we can graph as many have done, the influence of northern European, both Scythic and Germanic influence upon the Roman Empire in terms of military matters in terms of the rapidly changing repertoire and style. Roman armies increasingly were using displays such as war cries, heavy cavalry in the Germanic style of lance holdings (couched and over the shoulder), wearing of pants and boots, improved metallurgy of swords (of which the Germanic cultures even before interaction with Rome, were seen to have better or more sophisticated production than in Rome), introduction once again of a caste based society into Italy and Europe as a whole, rejection of most types of commerce related to currency as the Germanic elites had little interest or knowledge of the idea of profits and so forth.

Even just the custom of Medieval Europe of constructing shrines wherein massive amounts of precious metals and other items of great wealth were stored would be incredible. Not due to the fact that they are placed there, but because these items were not used for monetary gains and instead were transferred into simple objects of societal display in shrines used by the public. From what we know, this custom derived from more traditional Germanic traditions that are linked with general Eurasian burial and wealth practices surrounding the hoarding of wealth. In a society and culture that does not possess the appropriate currency and notion of a profit based system of 'money' then the appropriate place of wealth was in the form of hoarding items of wealth (including people or livestock) and these were often not inherited and were instead interred into a burial of said person. In Germanic culture prior to the periods that we discuss, we find the people therein favoured a wealth display of jewelry, elaborate hairstyles and of possession of bovines. Their wealth that they possessed, was then, if of kings and lords, sacrificed and then interred with the person and some of their attendants.

This interring of vast quantities of wealth was common across Eurasia at the time and in Bronze Age Europe, however was unheard of in Roman Europe. However, beginning in the II century, we begin to see the push westward and southward of burials of men alongside important objects of jewelry. This increases over the years until it is very common for the peoples inhabiting Gaul, Noricum, Pannonia and of course Germania Inferior. Generally the opinion is that the Church affected a sharp change in the Germanic noble customs surrounding treasure and hoarding. Rather than treasure and hoarding revolving around the immediate display and then interment with the dead in elaborate graves, the hoarding of treasure gained via looting was transferred to elaborate rural shrines which accumulated massive amounts of wealth from the looting of their Germanic overlords, most importantly the Franks.

If a Roman from the year 100 CE or from 35 BCE were to have seen such customs flourishing in Medieval Italy, Gaul or so forth, they would be thoroughly shocked. Roman usage of gold and silver resources is readily known as a form of specie and also used for exchange in importation of goods from the east, including items from the Germanic world such as amber or fine furs. Whereas, when gold was discovered in medieval Europe, the gold was taken and distributed either into a shrine, turned into jewelry and worn or redirected into the creation of temples and or palaces. This places an interesting frame thus around the notion and 'sin' of Greed in European framework, as less derived from that of Biblical mandates and more from the influence of a Germanic cultural mores that itself was derived from older non-profit based systems in Eurasia who preferred grand displays and other uses of wealth than in its profit or accumulation as converted into money.

There is manifold ways to describe the situation and as such, I am not hitting all points. Anyway, I hope that at least gives some examples.
 
Do the Greek rulers in the Hellenic Kingdoms (Selucid Empire, Ptolemaic Egypt particularly) have a shot at assimilating their subjects to Greek culture and some form of Greek language? Separately, but related - could the Romans conceivably assimilate the Germanic peoples (assuming a more favorable POD in Augustus's conquest of Germania) such that the former empire maintains a higher degree of linguistic and cultural unity after 476?

I'm guessing the Romans have a better chance since they seemed to have the stronger imperial institutions than the Greek ruling class that was installed in the former Achaemenid territories.
A lasting Bactrian Hellenic kingdom would be interesting for example. Also if Alexander's conquest lead to a lasting merger between Hellenic world and far Eastern Asia sphere. For Millenias Hellenic Greek culture had been an important factor in Western Asia/Middle East. Until the 20th Century.
For Romans a morevRomaniced Africa would have been interesting with North Sfrican peoples effectly takibg over Roman costums like the Berbers. OTL the Nubian kingdoms even switched to Christianity due to Roman influence allegedly. So a more cultural tie would be interesting.
 
Had Islam not emerged from the Arabian peninsula, it's very likely that the Eastern Mediterranean would've resembled something akin to China. There would be a prestige standardized Greek register based on the Constantinopolitan dialect while divergent dialects would emerge in the provinces like Egyptiot and Syrian Greek.
 
Had Islam not emerged from the Arabian peninsula, it's very likely that the Eastern Mediterranean would've resembled something akin to China. There would be a prestige standardized Greek register based on the Constantinopolitan dialect while divergent dialects would emerge in the provinces like Egyptiot and Syrian Greek.
Or have they got a lucky break against the ERE, they would have become a little more greco roman too https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...former-roman-empire-becomes-romanized.431350/
 
’Romanization’, ‘Hellenization’ and assimilation are generally quite amorphous terms and modern academia is finding them to be less than optimal in describing the processes that took place in the classical world. Hellenization in particular as the Hellenic koine now includes any state that adopted the Greek script and language in some official capacity and replicated the characteristics of Greco-Roman realism in their art. By this standard, are the Arsacids Hellenized? Are the Mauryans?

Indin’t think there can ever be a full Hellenization until the Greeks stop othering their subjects and include them in the cosmology of their worldview. Otherwise creolisation of cultures is as far as it can go. And that’s not necessarily a bad thing, pre-Hasmonean Judea was full of Jews that were willingly creolising Hellenic practices with Jewish thought before Antiochus IV and the Maccabees fucked it up.
 
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