PC: Geothermal and Solar powered Industrial Revolution

[Emperor Gustavus Adolphus]

I need these for my potential timelines. Is an entirely Geothermal first and then aided by Solar power Industrial revolution possible in around the OTL Industrial revolution or the Colonial era (Time of British, Dutch and French Australian and North American Settlement)? I am planning a timeline in the future, for a Geothermal powered country in the Sahara with the size greater than that of the United States, established by an Union of Central, Eastern and Northern European countries with their Geothermal powered settlements, after feeling "set back" by the Western European countries, which went on to become superpowers.

I am planning a union initially founded by Hungarians, Germans, Swiss, Czechs and Austrians, which would be joined by the other Slavic, Baltic and the Nordic countries, in the Industrial era, led by a desire to match or overtake Britain, France and Netherlands

 

[kaiidth]

Geothermal first

Solar power

In the late 18th Century and early 19thCentury?

Geothermal might work in region with volcanos...

Iceland would surely be perfect.

But Solar as a real powerful energy .....?
Without all the stuff you need for the Solar panels?

 

[Dr. Hochmeister]

Straight up physically impossible I'm afraid. In order to build the equipment necessary for large-scale geothermal and solar power you need the knowledge and materials from an industrial revolution.

 

[Emperor Gustavus Adolphus]

In the late 18th Century and early 19thCentury?

Geothermal might work in region with volcanos...

Iceland would surely be perfect.

But Solar as a real powerful energy .....?
Without all the stuff you need for the Solar panels?

Straight up physically impossible I'm afraid. In order to build the equipment necessary for large-scale geothermal and solar power you need the knowledge and materials from an industrial revolution.

Started and founded with Geothermal power, initially and then aided by Solar. The nation I am planning would be a Greened and a Climate controlled one in the OTL present Sahara Desert, with the size of something larger than United States. The Union as I described would initially build Geothermal powered Climate controlled cities and farms through materials and knowledge of the OTL Coal and Oil Industrial revolution and then build up settlements for their people in a large United country in the Sahara and the Savannah, which were very sparsely populated, to settle people of their nations. Of course, for such a large union, we need the POD after the Age of Enlightenment as they follow diverse denominations of Christianity at rivals to each other.

Geothermal Power plants need just will, which is absent now. At that time, with such a large union, I would think it would be possible. Opinions?

 

[kaiidth]

Started and founded with Geothermal power, initially and then aided by Solar. The nation I am planning would be a Greened and a Climate controlled one in the OTL present Sahara Desert,

Greened AND Climate controlled in the Sahara?
In that age?
I'm sorry that this is ASB level in the age you planned it.
There are good, simple ideas to re-green the Sahara at least partially today, which might even work back then.
Planting heat tolerant shrubs, keep the goats away, stuff like that.........BUT you want it CLIMATE CONTROLLED too?????

Geothermal Power plants need just will, which is absent now. At that time, with such a large union, I would think it would be possible. Opinions?

They need more than just will.!
They need the machinery and electronic too.
Again, wrong age, especially for Solar power.

Geothermal heat and its uses might be done but only close to Volcanoes.

 

[Dr. Hochmeister]

Started and founded with Geothermal power, initially and then aided by Solar. The nation I am planning would be a Greened and a Climate controlled one in the OTL present Sahara Desert, with the size of something larger than United States. The Union as I described would initially build Geothermal powered Climate controlled cities and farms through materials and knowledge of the OTL Coal and Oil Industrial revolution and then build up settlements for their people in a large United country in the Sahara and the Savannah, which were very sparsely populated, to settle people of their nations. Of course, for such a large union, we need the POD after the Age of Enlightenment as they follow diverse denominations of Christianity at rivals to each other.

Geothermal Power plants need just will, which is absent now. At that time, with such a large union, I would think it would be possible. Opinions?

The simplest forms of geothermal and solar energy are steam engines. Use the heat from the sun or the earth to boil water and produce mechanical or electrical power. The problem is, anyone with the knowledge, engineering materials (steel), and ability to do so will be able to make a conventional steam engine running off coal, which you need already to make your steel and is much more energy dense. So there will be other, more hospitable places developing first and drawing in all the excess rural labor to a conventional industrial revolution.

The development of the Sahara as you discuss would only be possible in the future through a massive dedication of resources from sources external to the region. While imaginative, such a scenario just isn't physically or societally possible in the timeframe you're talking about here.

 

[Undeadmuffin]

Maybe some kind of Stirling engine using mirrors to focus the sunlight on a focal point, it could be usefull for region without coal or charcoal sources.

 

[Emperor Gustavus Adolphus]

Maybe some kind of Stirling engine using mirrors to focus the sunlight on a focal point, it could be usefull for region without coal or charcoal sources.

That's a good idea. I think we could start with Solar parabolic trough powered settlement that uses the surplus energy output to dig Geothermal wells, which could cascade the development further. I would think that a union of so many countries as I mentioned should be able to achieve this much.

 

[The Tai-Pan]

Also, did the people at the time have the ecological concepts to 'green' an area? Like, climatology and meteorology were in their infancy.

 

[Undeadmuffin]

Also, did the people at the time have the ecological concepts to 'green' an area? Like, climatology and meteorology were in their infancy.

Yes and no, there was an obvious observation of pollution of the water and air as early as 1812, with the coinage of terms such as ''city-fog'' or ''pea soup fog'' and the description of urban heat island in the formation of smog, notably in London. But the lack of alternative and industrialists power in government prevented any real change, so much of what we would call ''ecological concept'' in these early days were abandonment of the industrial economy to go back to a rural way of life.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Started and founded with Geothermal power, initially and then aided by Solar. The nation I am planning would be a Greened and a Climate controlled one in the OTL present Sahara Desert, with the size of something larger than United States. The Union as I described would initially build Geothermal powered Climate controlled cities and farms through materials and knowledge of the OTL Coal and Oil Industrial revolution and then build up settlements for their people in a large United country in the Sahara and the Savannah, which were very sparsely populated, to settle people of their nations. Of course, for such a large union, we need the POD after the Age of Enlightenment as they follow diverse denominations of Christianity at rivals to each other.

Why would they ever want to settle the Sahara Desert? A few oases and a decent amount of minerals (i.e. iron) in the mountains isn't worth much, unless they're after the oil. It's also full of some very powerful tribes of Tuaregs and Arabs who gave infinite headaches to the European colonial empires and required WWI-era machine guns and aircraft to be subdued and to this day still give the central governments of the post-colonial nations problems. There's pretty much no way a country this size can even be governed (except in name only) before machine guns are invented. Yes, the Tuareg can be mass murdered but what European government is going to spend money and accept the loss of thousands of soldiers in the name of slaughtering desert nomads to gain control of useless land? It's probably beyond the scale possible of the early 19th century to slaughter natives over that amount of land, keeping in mind the Dzungar genocide was done over a much smaller land area and the Indian Wars in the American West were done on much more divided peoples decimated by a century-plus of disease as well as famine so is not a comparable situation.

A solar industrial revolution is borderline impossible (except maybe in a post-apocalyptic scenario which is kind of cheating) since coal and charcoal outcompete it, as does even oil which the Sahara is full of. And geothermal power just isn't going to work except to supplement an industrial revolution, like water/windmills. And 19th century climate control? I doubt it. All of the equipment you'd need to make it efficient is only possible with the fruits of an industrial revolution.

The savannas are home to numerous diseases like sleeping sickness, river blindness, and in parts malaria which will decimate European populations. Perhaps even worse for colonisation, there's also many lethal animal diseases like the animal form of sleeping sickness and African horse sickness which will destroy their livestock as well.

It's far more plausible to just use the substantial coal and oil reserves in the Sahara to industrialise, but I wouldn't hold my breath on a Tuareg or European colonised state in the area doing so.

Geothermal Power plants need just will, which is absent now. At that time, with such a large union, I would think it would be possible. Opinions?

Geothermal is also only viable in geologically active areas, which the Sahara is not. Even with today's technology it's impractical to dig the deep wells needed to access geothermal power anywhere. At the end of the day, geothermal power is regionally limited the same way hydropower is.

Maybe some kind of Stirling engine using mirrors to focus the sunlight on a focal point, it could be usefull for region without coal or charcoal sources.

How are you going to get the sheer number of mirrors needed to have an industrial revolution based on that? It takes precision craftsmanship of not only the mirrors, but the parts for your engine too. Any region with the number of craftsmen required is going to have some coal/charcoal or will otherwise be wealthy enough to import what they need to get something going.

 

[Emperor Gustavus Adolphus]

It's also full of some very powerful tribes of Tuaregs and Arabs who gave infinite headaches to the European colonial empires and required WWI-era machine guns and aircraft to be subdued and to this day still give the central governments of the post-colonial nations problems. There's pretty much no way a country this size can even be governed (except in name only) before machine guns are invented. Yes, the Tuareg can be mass murdered but what European government is going to spend money and accept the loss of thousands of soldiers in the name of slaughtering desert nomads to gain control of useless land?

There are a few inaccuracies here. Arabs and Arab-Berbers (what is called of the North African Muslims, today) don't live anywhere beyond the area that coincides with the former Roman, Numidian, Vandal and Phoenician Africa which has also been inhabited by people like the Kabyle and the Amazigh. I don't know why you have ignored this but the population density of Sahara desert is incredibly, incredibly low.

Any settlement there, that can manage the resources and equipment as I suggested isn't going to have a slightest problem with any desert nomads. In areas that falls outside the former Roman Empire in North Africa, there's hardly any scope for conflict unless the settlers want to deliberately pick wars (which isn't likely).

As long as they can manage to get plenty of Solar and Geothermal Energy to conduct controlled Agriculture and temperature controlled settlements, the settlement is possible and any interference can be totally ruled out.

 

[Emperor Gustavus Adolphus]

A solar industrial revolution is borderline impossible (except maybe in a post-apocalyptic scenario which is kind of cheating) since coal and charcoal outcompete it, as does even oil which the Sahara is full of. And geothermal power just isn't going to work except to supplement an industrial revolution, like water/windmills. And 19th century climate control? I doubt it. All of the equipment you'd need to make it efficient is only possible with the fruits of an industrial revolution.

Since I've refuted the demographic issues (the Oasis, Niger and Senegal rivers and the Atlas mountain regions, which already populated wouldn't be suitable for settlement on a pattern I am talking about) and hence we have a limited conflict with the natives.

Coming back to the Technological aspects, as I mentioned, digging Geothermal wells, straight up, isn't feasible. So what we could have would be Stirling Engines being mass manufactured and then moved into the region for the initial settlements. After a few iterations of success, Geothermal digging using the Stirling Energy output could be done. Then on, it would be mostly sustainable.

 

[Arkenfolm]

There are a few inaccuracies here. Arabs and Arab-Berbers (what is called of the North African Muslims, today) don't live anywhere beyond the area that coincides with the former Roman, Numidian, Vandal and Phoenician Africa which has also been inhabited by people like the Kabyle and the Amazigh. I don't know why you have ignored this but the population density of Sahara desert is incredibly, incredibly low.

Diffa Arabs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Baggara Arabs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Arab-Berber - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Char Bouba war - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Sahara has been progressively Arabised by the same process which Arabised the Berbers of coastal North Africa. That's why most of Mauritania (the modern country) and Western Sahara speak Arabic.

Any settlement there, that can manage the resources and equipment as I suggested isn't going to have a slightest problem with any desert nomads. In areas that falls outside the former Roman Empire in North Africa, there's hardly any scope for conflict unless the settlers want to deliberately pick wars (which isn't likely).

That's the point, they can't get the logistics and equipment because they can't build it natively and the desert nomads control the trade routes. Without machine guns, any army is basically screwed, and even with machine guns they can still inflict plenty of damage on a European army before airplanes allow aerial attacks and recon of their movements. There's a reason this was the last place in Africa colonised.

As long as they can manage to get plenty of Solar and Geothermal Energy to conduct controlled Agriculture and temperature controlled settlements, the settlement is possible and any interference can be totally ruled out.

Which they won't be able to for reasons I said.

Since I've refuted the demographic issues (the Oasis, Niger and Senegal rivers and the Atlas mountain regions, which already populated wouldn't be suitable for settlement on a pattern I am talking about) and hence we have a limited conflict with the natives.

Not at all, the Tuareg are notorious for detesting central government control. Why would they want white people at their oases?

Coming back to the Technological aspects, as I mentioned, digging Geothermal wells, straight up, isn't feasible. So what we could have would be Stirling Engines being mass manufactured and then moved into the region for the initial settlements. After a few iterations of success, Geothermal digging using the Stirling Energy output could be done. Then on, it would be mostly sustainable.

These wells aren't even possible to economically dig with today's technology. It makes literally no sense to ship Stirling engines to North Africa and minimal sense to build them there and use them when you have plenty of oil and coal deposits in the Sahara and potentially on some hillsides and valleys a supply of charcoal if carefully maintained.

 

[Catsmate]

I need these for my potential timelines. Is an entirely Geothermal first and then aided by Solar power Industrial revolution possible in around the OTL Industrial revolution or the Colonial era (Time of British, Dutch and French Australian and North American Settlement)? I am planning a timeline in the future, for a Geothermal powered country in the Sahara with the size greater than that of the United States, established by an Union of Central, Eastern and Northern European countries with their Geothermal powered settlements, after feeling "set back" by the Western European countries, which went on to become superpowers.

I am planning a union initially founded by Hungarians, Germans, Swiss, Czechs and Austrians, which would be joined by the other Slavic, Baltic and the Nordic countries, in the Industrial era, led by a desire to match or overtake Britain, France and Netherlands

No.
Not on our Earth in anything like the locations of the historical IR or any major population centres.

Population centres in the Sahara would require massive amounts of water, requiring huge infrastructure to supply it.

 

[Emperor Gustavus Adolphus]

I would need to replan something else, then. I attempted something like an early version of a mega project on the likes of the Atlantropa. Let me look at the alternatives.

Any suggestion for an Earth based Industrial era Mega project?

Why would they want white people at their oases?

I never said that they would colonize any Oasis, to correct you.

 

[Triune Kingdom]

Maybe something could be done by employing Concentrated Solar Power, to serve as heat source for Steam Engines?

 

[Arkenfolm]

I would need to replan something else, then. I attempted something like an early version of a mega project on the likes of the Atlantropa. Let me look at the alternatives.

Any suggestion for an Earth based Industrial era Mega project?

I've always wanted to do a TL on King Leopold II being deep into civil engineering and deciding to dam the Congo River and make a giant lake there. That is part of Atlantropa, yet even though it's far more feasible (although a serious stretch to build in some alt-Congo Free State in the early 20th century with what is effectively slave labour) and would have colossal consequences on Africa and the world, tends to get ignored in favour of the centerpiece of Atlantropa with the Gibraltar Dam.

IMO that's the biggest megaproject even remotely feasible in the pre-WWI era and probably takes a TL where more civil engineering feats in dam building are achieved in the 19th century which may in turn necessitate a canal wank and delay of the railroad age so there's a lot more study of river engineering.

I never said that they would colonize any Oasis, to correct you.

If it isn't the Oasis, then it's what you mentioned with the Upper Niger, the Senegal River, and Sahara Atlas, which have a substantial population already. Anything other than that is an utter wasteland even by the standards of the people who live there, like the parts of the desert where people stereotypically collapse and see a mirage of an oasis.

 

[Bloodmage]

I am planning a union initially founded by Hungarians, Germans, Swiss, Czechs and Austrians, which would be joined by the other Slavic, Baltic and the Nordic countries, in the Industrial era, led by a desire to match or overtake Britain, France and Netherlands

I am planning a timeline in the future, for a Geothermal powered country in the Sahara with the size greater than that of the United States, established by an Union of Central, Eastern and Northern European countries with their Geothermal powered settlements, after feeling "set back" by the Western European countries, which went on to become superpowers.

...why would these countries even be interested in the sahara?I imagine they would be more interested in the more productive and resource rich coast of africa,furthermore why would they set up a new country when they themselves can control the region,also it would be more wise for these countries to develop their own nation rather than seek colonies that will waste a lot of resources

edit:so it will basically be a colonial empire founded by a confederation of states(that is the best you can hope for)

 

[Emperor Gustavus Adolphus]

edit:so it will basically be a colonial empire founded by a confederation of states(that is the best you can hope for)

I was more interested to create a Timeline with a Mega-Engineering project. However I am going to replan now, as this has been shown to contain too many flaws.