PC: Female Knight Order

I know: the title probably smells ASB for most people here. But is there any realistical way to do this?

The personnal idea that came to my mind was actually linked to Joan of Arc surviving by avoiding capture. She would then have fought until the end of the Hundread Years' War, eventually becoming some sort of a legend (though she kinda already is OTL). This would eventually have inspired a few noble women to fight by her side or at least follow her example. In the end, we would end up with a Knight Order (that I personnaly call "Order of St.Joan" or "Joanine Order") made only of female knights that use Joan of Arc as their ideal, most notably with the members making a vow of chastity (because the Pucelle d'Orléans remained her virgin according to chroniclers).

Though to me it's an interesting idea and a fun concept, I only see this happening in a Fantasy fiction, making it ASB. But what do you think of it personnally? And do you have your own ideas on the matter?
 
I know: the title probably smells ASB for most people here. But is there any realistical way to do this?

The personnal idea that came to my mind was actually linked to Joan of Arc surviving by avoiding capture. She would then have fought until the end of the Hundread Years' War, eventually becoming some sort of a legend (though she kinda already is OTL). This would eventually have inspired a few noble women to fight by her side or at least follow her example. In the end, we would end up with a Knight Order (that I personnaly call "Order of St.Joan" or "Joanine Order") made only of female knights that use Joan of Arc as their ideal, most notably with the members making a vow of chastity (because the Pucelle d'Orléans remained her virgin according to chroniclers).

Though to me it's an interesting idea and a fun concept, I only see this happening in a Fantasy fiction, making it ASB. But what do you think of it personnally? And do you have your own ideas on the matter?

I suppose we could see it as a Chivalric Order of Merit, rather than a militant one. After all, even in medieval times, a few rare women were part of the Order of the Garter as Ladies of the Garter until Henry VII discontinued the practice. We could see the Order of St. Joan, a Chivalric Order that is oversaw by the Queen's of France who appoint companions to it. These would be women who best espouse the virtues of St. Jeanne; chastity, modesty, ect. We could even see the Order divided into various classes, such as Dames of the Order (in lieu of Knights), Ladies of the Order, ect.

Especially if the Legend of St. Jeanne catches on, I could see one Queen of France establishing it as an honor for the ladies of her household and those who best show those ideals preached by Ste. Jeanne. Perhaps in an ATL regarding Louis XII, he ascends the throne with children, his first wife Jeanne de Valois having provided him heirs. The widowed Anne of Brittany is instead betrothed to the new Dauphin, Charles (born c. 1479-1480). Thus instead of being put away, Ste. Jeanne remains Queen of France and ends up founding this order as a celebration for the marriage of her son to the Duchess of Brittany, who becomes the first Dame of the Order. Upon the death of Queen Jeanne in 1505, the order is taken over by the Dauphine Anne of Brittany who embellishes upon the order. By the time of her death in 1526, the Order of Ste. Jeanne is viewed as the patron order of Les Reines de France.
 
They wouldn't really fight. They'd probably be trained, but not expected to do more than defend themselves and one other person if necessary.
They'd act more for rallying the faithful, building up morale, and maybe acting as body guards for important women, nunneries, etc.
 
The main problems will be acceptance and organisation. Assuming it finds acceptance among the nobility, it will still most likely remain a purely symbolic order. No woman can become a knight. Secondly, there is no way that it could become a religious order of knights. If it was constituted as a secular company, like the Garter or the Golden Fleece, I suspect it would very soon end up as a purely nominal distinction that the kings (or queens) of France give out as a sign of their favour. Its members wouild not be able to serve in any real capacity since, as noblewomen, they would already have plennty of obligations. The only possible course I see is constituting it as a canonical community or religious fraternity under some pliant bishop. That would keep papal oversight to a minimum (there is no way the pope would approve it) while still allowing members to serve full-time and live as quasi-coenobites. Of course even then, it will very likely devolve into a society dedicated to caring for the wounded and exhorting the warriors. Not even the most pliant bishop in all of France would be able to maintain a female boot camp in his see against public outrage.
 
Nuns that take care of wounded at the front. They can be armed with crossbows in case they're overrun.

Not nuns, that would never be allowed. And I don't see crossbows as a really effective armament in that event. If anything, either a symbolic sword (like the Maid wore), or a stick. Sticks are wonderful things, before you know it, they're ten feet long and have iron spikes on the end. And they're still just sticks. :p (that seems to have been a major public safety headache in rural England because you couldn't forbid anyone from carrying a stick - so a stick it was)
 

wormyguy

Banned
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/orders/wom-kn.htm

Here is a description taken from Ashmole, The Institution, Laws, and Ceremony of the Most Noble Order of the Garter (1672), Ch. 3, sect. 3:

"The example is of the Noble Women of Tortosa in Aragon, and recorded by Josef Micheli Marquez, who plainly calls them Cavalleros or Knights, or may I not rather say Cavalleras, seeing I observe the words Equitissae and Militissae (formed from the Latin Equites and Milites) heretofore applied to Women, and sometimes used to express Madams or Ladies,though now these Titles are not known.

"Don Raymond, last Earl of Barcellona (who by intermarriage with Petronilla, only Daughter and Heir of King Ramiro the Monk, united that principality to the Kingdom of Aragon) having in the year 1149, gained the City of Tortosa from the Moors, they on the 31 of December following, laid a new Siege to that place, for the recovery of it out of the Earls hands. The Inhabitants being a length reduced to gread streights, desired relief of the Earl, but he, being not in a condition to give them any, they entertained some thoughts of making a surrender. Which the Women hearing of, to prevent the disaster threatning their City, themselves, and Children, put on mens Clothes, and by a resolute sally, forced the Moors to raise the Siege.

"The Earl, finding himself obliged, bythe gallentry of the action, thought fit to make his acknowlegements thereof, by granting them several Privileges and Immunities, and to perpetuate the memory of so signal an attempt, instituted an Order, somewhat like a Military Order, into which were admitted only those Brave Women, deriving the honor to their Descendants, and assigned them for a Dadge, a thing like a Fryars Capouche, sharp at the top, after the form of a Torch, and of a crimson colour, to be worn upon their Head-clothes. He also ordained, that at all publick meetings, the women should have precedence of the Men. That they should be exempted from all Taxes, adn that all the Apparel and Jewels, though of never so great value, left by their dead Husbands, should be their own.

"These Women (saith our Author) having thus aquired this Honor by their personal Valour, carried themselves after the Military Knights of those days."
 

The thing is thought, it seem to have been a one off thing to reward the members, not something the authorities would have wanted to perpetuate.

Probably for a female order to be possible, you would need to start in a way that would not frigthen the authorities. Nuns with some self-defence training as as been mentioned is a possibility. Over time, some of these are assigned permanently as sentries / casualty escorts and from there on you have more or less and a chivalric order.
 
It's certainly not likely, but something like the Hospitallers might work. They start out as a medical order treating the wounded and gradually adopt more militant doctrines and practices as need arises. I'm certain the word "Knight" would never be used to refer to them, however; that word refers primarily to a social class and profession, and its application to churchmen, even churchmen who are obviously soldiers, was always a bit questionable.

There's no reason Joan of Arc can't be combined with this idea either. Betcha once the French Crown is secure, she expresses an interest in seeing the Holy Land...
 
There's no reason Joan of Arc can't be combined with this idea either. Betcha once the French Crown is secure, she expresses an interest in seeing the Holy Land...

If I remember correctly, Joan of Arc wanted to launch a crusade against the Hussites after dealing with the English.
 
One problem with an "Order of St Joan" is that Joan wasn't canonised until IIRC 1927, by which time the idea that knighthood was anything other than an honorific had largely passed.

I think as mentioned that a militant order of nuns as a sister order of the Hospitallers gradually evolving from providing pure medical care to wearing armour, carrying personal weapons, etc. is probably the least unlikely way to achieve this.
 
If I remember correctly, Joan of Arc wanted to launch a crusade against the Hussites after dealing with the English.
I studied a good bit about Joan this summer for a play I was writing. Yes, she mentioned a Hussite crusade once in an open letter, but I don't think she really would have done it. I can see her floating the idea - hey, I can see her repeatedly pressing it - but I can't see it actually happening. The noblemen, most of whom iOTL never truly supported Joan (and frequently opposed her for more-or-less sensible reasons) would never allow it. Yes, the people loved Joan, but take a look at the People's Crusade for what happens when peasants started a war by themselves. (And Joan being at their head wouldn't help matters much - she had next to no sense of strategy.)
 
Anaxagoras said:
Well, the most important to ask is obvious. Will they be hot?

Depends on your tastes regarding woman wearing Armors... Although I kind of doubt you would see these women were "Chainmail Bikinis" as they are often made to look in Fantasy fiction. The men who made these armors never undertood how a spear or a sword works :D

RPW@Cy said:
One problem with an "Order of St Joan" is that Joan wasn't canonised until IIRC 1927, by which time the idea that knighthood was anything other than an honorific had largely passed.

Well, the idea I had was that Joan of Arc escaped capture and pursued the fight against England, achieving a few more acts that could appear as miracles: she could thus have chances of being canonised earlier. Alternatively, I had used the word "Joanine Order" as it would have been names after Joan's first name: it was using the same logic that had the Franciscans taking their names after St.Francis. You could probably have other alternate titles in this scenario like "Order of Arc", "Order of the Maid of Orléans", etc...

RPW@Cy said:
I think as mentioned that a militant order of nuns as a sister order of the Hospitallers gradually evolving from providing pure medical care to wearing armour, carrying personal weapons, etc. is probably the least unlikely way to achieve this.

I see the logic behind that. When would be the best time to see this kind of thing show up? The crusades?
And if such an order did show up, what would be the consequences of this?
 
Interesting, I wonder what an ASB smells like???

I'll have a serious thought on this, actually, tonight and see what I come up with

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Shawn certainly has a good idea

But I would propose a more radical one - literally radical

Take one of the great civil wars of the 17th century *(the Frondes, the British Civil War) to an extreme - institute radical rule, destroy established traditions, and build a militarised country

These actions would bring about civil wars of their own, and in these you could see the raising of women's batallions, quite possibly an action of radical feminists, who earn their right to respect by their performance on the battlefield.

Once things have settled down, over time less egalitarian forms come back into use - much like how the USSR reinstuted the title of Marshal. It is a new radical age, but Knightly Orders are once more, and whilst egalitarianism excuses this by dint of it being a meritocracy of reward, they still do not allow true equality of the sexes, so the women, whose regiments by now are important to the new nation, get their own knightly order

The Order of Lesbos

Well. maybe not, lol, maybe more likely to look to the likes of Athena or Freya...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Shawn certainly has a good idea

But I would propose a more radical one - literally radical

Take one of the great civil wars of the 17th century *(the Frondes, the British Civil War) to an extreme - institute radical rule, destroy established traditions, and build a militarised country

These actions would bring about civil wars of their own, and in these you could see the raising of women's batallions, quite possibly an action of radical feminists, who earn their right to respect by their performance on the battlefield.

Once things have settled down, over time less egalitarian forms come back into use - much like how the USSR reinstuted the title of Marshal. It is a new radical age, but Knightly Orders are once more, and whilst egalitarianism excuses this by dint of it being a meritocracy of reward, they still do not allow true equality of the sexes, so the women, whose regiments by now are important to the new nation, get their own knightly order

The Order of Lesbos

Well. maybe not, lol, maybe more likely to look to the likes of Athena or Freya...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
You sir are a bad man. :mad:

Congratulations. :D
 
Grey Wolf said:
Interesting, I wonder what an ASB smells like???
Don't know myself, although I suspect it would some strange odor :D

"Smelling ASB" is a bit of a metaphor. After all, you do say that something smells when it appears not right. I choosed ASB just because the scenario would appear ASB to most (including myself even if I proposed it).

wormyguy said:
She must've been canonized by the Avignon antipope.
If memory serves me right, the Western Schism came to an end around 1415. Joan of Arc died in 1430. So probably not.
 
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