PC: Eleanor Habsburg as Electress Palatine?

What it says on the tin. What would it take for Charles to allow his widowed sister, the Dowager Queen Eleanor of Portugal to marry her childhood sweetheart, the future Frederick II, Elector Palatine? The POD's in 1518, btw.
 
Didn't Karl have them both swear up and down that there hadn't been any improprieties between them before marrying Eleanor to Manuel/Francois? The fact of the matter remains that the Elector Palatine was willing to settle for Eleanor or Marie, Dowager Queen of Hungary, which seems to indicate while she would've loved him to distraction, he would've seen the match for its purely political gains (whatever they might've been).

Maybe if Karl is only king of Spain or Holy Roman Emperor, a German match for Eleanor might make more sense?
 
Anyone else who at first misread the title as "PC: Eleanor Habsburg as Empress Palpatine?" and was going to suggest moving the topic to the ASB Forum?
 
Didn't Karl have them both swear up and down that there hadn't been any improprieties between them before marrying Eleanor to Manuel/Francois? The fact of the matter remains that the Elector Palatine was willing to settle for Eleanor or Marie, Dowager Queen of Hungary, which seems to indicate while she would've loved him to distraction, he would've seen the match for its purely political gains (whatever they might've been).

Maybe if Karl is only king of Spain or Holy Roman Emperor, a German match for Eleanor might make more sense?

I'll spoil the TL, the latter scenario does happen because of a civil war placing Juana back on the throne and Ferdinand thrust into the role of her heir.

So, is the marriage plausible then? If the marriage does happen, how likely is it for the Palatinate to still turn Protestant eventually?
 
I'll spoil the TL, the latter scenario does happen because of a civil war placing Juana back on the throne and Ferdinand thrust into the role of her heir.

So, is the marriage plausible then? If the marriage does happen, how likely is it for the Palatinate to still turn Protestant eventually?

Well, the Palatinate turned Protestant in spite of having Friedrich and his Catholic, half-Habsburg wife. AIUI while they were Catholic and endorsed Catholicism, they didn't meddle too much with the Protestants. However, a Friedrich that has an heir would be a different kettle of fish.

As to the likelihood of the marriage, pretty much it increases with the less lands the Habsburgs have. Emperor Friedrich III's sisters married the Saxon elector and a Badenese prince, Maximilian's married a Bavarian duke, so it's not unlikely that Charles will try to rope in the empire by tying himself to it. Eleanor's marriage to the Elector Palatine or the duke of Lorraine might do that. Plus, the Saxon elector who patronised Martin Luther had been hoping to be able to marry Charles' aunt, Margarethe of Austria. The only reason he didn't was because Margarethe vowed after her second husband died never to marry again.
 
Well, the Palatinate turned Protestant in spite of having Friedrich and his Catholic, half-Habsburg wife. AIUI while they were Catholic and endorsed Catholicism, they didn't meddle too much with the Protestants. However, a Friedrich that has an heir would be a different kettle of fish.

AFAIK, both Fred and Dorothea were openly Protestant IOTL and personally spearheaded its spread in their land.

So Eleanor marries Frederick to tie him to Charles and prevent him from losing everything. Do we know anything about Eleanor's religious alignments? I can also see them having a child or two, since I think Eleanor's lack of pregnancies comes from her first marriage being to a really old man and her second one happening when she's already in her thirties.

A side note, do all German states follow Salic inheritance?
 
AFAIK, both Fred and Dorothea were openly Protestant IOTL and personally spearheaded its spread in their land.

So Eleanor marries Frederick to tie him to Charles and prevent him from losing everything. Do we know anything about Eleanor's religious alignments? I can also see them having a child or two, since I think Eleanor's lack of pregnancies comes from her first marriage being to a really old man and her second one happening when she's already in her thirties.

A side note, do all German states follow Salic inheritance?

Whoops:eek:

I think of the Habsburg children of their generation, Mary and Isabella both had rather fluid ideas of being Catholic. AFAIK there were rumors when Isabella died that she'd been a secret convert, and the Habsburgs reacted by putting out that she'd died a convinced Catholic. Mary and Ferdinand were both rather sympathetic to some of the Reformation's points (I can't remember if Charles was too) from my understanding. While the only extreme Catholic was youngest sister, Catherine - who'd spent her whole life in Iberia.

As to Eleanor having kids, why not? She had two with Manuel - a daughter who was at the time one of the wealthiest women in Europe (but seems to have suffered from a case of being passed over continually (though from her portrait she wasn't unattractive)) and a son, who died young.
 
Whoops:eek:

I think of the Habsburg children of their generation, Mary and Isabella both had rather fluid ideas of being Catholic. AFAIK there were rumors when Isabella died that she'd been a secret convert, and the Habsburgs reacted by putting out that she'd died a convinced Catholic. Mary and Ferdinand were both rather sympathetic to some of the Reformation's points (I can't remember if Charles was too) from my understanding. While the only extreme Catholic was youngest sister, Catherine - who'd spent her whole life in Iberia.

As to Eleanor having kids, why not? She had two with Manuel - a daughter who was at the time one of the wealthiest women in Europe (but seems to have suffered from a case of being passed over continually (though from her portrait she wasn't unattractive)) and a son, who died young.

Ah, so Reformation in the Palatinate is still plausible, though with little brother Charles keeping an eye on them, maybe they can turn a blind eye on it publically but privately send funds to the reformists. Anonymously, of course.
 
Something to think about: of Eleanor isn't free to marry Francis I of France, who would be? Maybe Mary, Queen of Hungary as a substitute? She'd be 25 at the time and might actually give the French King another child or two?
 
On the children question, there is the definite possibility of children. Her mother had 6 chances children, Isabella had 5/6 before she died (though only 2 girls survived) and Catherine had 7/8 (again, 2 survived). She most likely, as she won't be having children until her early to mid 20s and with someone she isn't closely related to, has 6 pregnancies over 7/8 years with at least 2/3 surviving children, possibly more.
 
IMHO I think you're depicting Charles V as a too radical Catholic, one of his teachers was Desiderius Erasmus and Adriaan Boeyens (later Pope Adrian VI), he didn't oppose some reform, but not at the cost of sacrificing the unity of the Holy Church.
Ironically his early attempts to stop the Reformation in its' infancy didn't only meet Protestant opposition, but interestingly the Papacy didn't mind too much, that the very powerful Catholic Emperor faced some opposition (eventually that had to change for the sake of the Church, but by that time it was too late). Opposition which was in part politically motivated, since the Papal States were all but surrounded by the realms of Charles V.
Charles V had been advocating a Church Council long before the OTL Council of Trent*, which lead to the Counter-Reformation. At that Council Protestantism was denounced, but more importantly the Catholic Church got some long overdue reforms.

(*= the Council of Trent lasted from 1545 to 1563, but Martin Luther had published his 95 theses in back 1517 (the year the Fifth Council of Lateran ended, the next one would be Trent))
 
Something to think about: of Eleanor isn't free to marry Francis I of France, who would be? Maybe Mary, Queen of Hungary as a substitute? She'd be 25 at the time and might actually give the French King another child or two?

Except Marie, much like her aunt, Margarethe, flat out refused to marry again after her widowhood. Plus, Charles didn't seem to have an objection to her remaining unwed from what I can tell.
 
Last edited:
Top