PC: Earliest All or Nothing, three turret RN Battlecruiser?

I am going to plug for a 28 knot better armored Admiral/Hood design

Refit and Repair where built along Revenge lines (with more engine and less armor and gun)

But realistically I think we are looking at the G3s had they been built
 
For the proposed Agincourt of the 1914-15 Program Churchill suggested an 11” belt and ‘as fast as Tiger’. The concern was that while the RN stopped BC the Germans had kept going. This eventually triggered the wartime Admiral class.
 
Shortening anything is going to be tough if you want to get all the engines in.

Yes and the hull form necessary to attain the required speed

What triples (ie fewer turrets) allow over more twins is a shorter main belt to cover magazines and principle armament and allows more hull space for machinery etc.

But you knew that....
 
I was just having visions of Hood with that center section that goes on and on with some turrets perched on the ends.
 

DougM

Donor
The Armor is dependent on the job of the ship.
AoN is good if you are going against large guns of Battleships and BCs. A more spread out pattern is better against smaller guns.
The real challenge is building a ship and using it in the way it was intended vs whatever you happen to need it to do.
Case in point is that all Battleships used after Dec 7th were pretty much used for everything BUT the original primary design purpose of fighting gun battles with other battleships.

So the questions are as follows
Are we talking about best design for the intended roll or best design for what any given ship was actually used for?
If we are talking hypothetically then are we talking best design based on the intended roll of the ship or best design based on all possible rolls for the ship.

For instance if we are talking a BC that is meant to act as a scout then join the battle line that would be one type of armor. Now if the same ship ends up being used to chase commerce raiders then that would be a different type of armor.

So really we need to define the perimeters of the argument before you can decide what armor is best for what ship.

A lot of things are only true in a given situation.
 
I am going to plug for a 28 knot better armored Admiral/Hood design

Refit and Repair where built along Revenge lines (with more engine and less armor and gun)

But realistically I think we are looking at the G3s had they been built

From here:

Shrug. The thing I wanted was a 24 knot battleship in 1912.

I don't get why you have the Q mount in the middle, I don't think if you start from a clean sheet that putting the aft triple at the stern loses you anything and it should be relatively easy to balance?

(Unless you are going for a G3/O3 style post Jutland protection schema designed to favour magazines over propulsion, and then you might as well go all forward?)

I'm assuming you are not as this ships is definitely older than that, for example the aft 6" are to low and the mixed side belt...

I want the barbette somewhere along that sectional float sausage where I have good void separation between the belt and the barbette, room for the steam lines, room for the mags for the secondaries, have a block coeff of about 0.550 and work in decent armor without the lateral hull strain dropping below unity. Here, I'll show you.



upload_2019-7-14_17-26-23-png.472633


I got a 24 knot battleship in 1912.

Ersatz Iron Duke, UK battleship laid down 1912
Displacement:
23,225 t light; 24,651 t standard; 25,305 t normal; 25,829 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(631.27 ft / 623.36 ft) x 98.43 ft x (26.25 / 26.67 ft)
(192.41 m / 190.00 m) x 30.00 m x (8.00 / 8.13 m)
Armament:
9 - 13.50" / 343 mm 45.0 cal guns - 1,241.76lbs / 563.25kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1912 Model
2 x Triple mounts on centreline, forward deck forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
1 x Triple mount on centreline, aft deck centre
18 - 6.10" / 155 mm 45.0 cal guns - 114.59lbs / 51.98kg shells, 250 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1912 Model
18 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
16 below deck mounts
6 - 4.72" / 120 mm 45.0 cal guns - 53.17lbs / 24.12kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1912 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 13,328 lbs / 6,046 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.8" / 275 mm 249.34 ft / 76.00 m 11.91 ft / 3.63 m
Ends: 4.92" / 125 mm 373.98 ft / 113.99 m 11.91 ft / 3.63 m
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 249.34 ft / 76.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 62 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
2.95" / 75 mm 249.34 ft / 76.00 m 24.08 ft / 7.34 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 98.43 ft / 30.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 7.87" / 200 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
2nd: 6.10" / 155 mm - 3.94" / 100 mm
3rd: 4.13" / 105 mm - 4.13" / 105 mm
- Box over machinery:
2.95" / 75 mm
Forecastle: 2.95" / 75 mm Quarter deck: 2.95" / 75 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 10.04" / 255 mm, Aft 4.92" / 125 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 51,074 shp / 38,102 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,179 tons
Complement:
1,003 - 1,304
Cost:
£2.257 million / $9.030 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,279 tons, 9.0 %
- Guns: 2,279 tons, 9.0 %
Armour: 7,569 tons, 29.9 %
- Belts: 2,791 tons, 11.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 656 tons, 2.6 %
- Armament: 2,174 tons, 8.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,670 tons, 6.6 %
- Conning Towers: 278 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 2,036 tons, 8.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,340 tons, 44.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,081 tons, 8.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
44,984 lbs / 20,404 Kg = 36.5 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 7.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 6.5 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 78 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.91
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.56
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, low quarterdeck ,
a straight bulbous bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.552
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.33 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.97 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Aft deck: 20.00 %, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Quarter deck: 40.00 %, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 24.28 ft / 7.40 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 68.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 213.4 %
Waterplane Area: 42,819 Square feet or 3,978 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 215 lbs/sq ft or 1,047 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 2.25
- Overall: 1.08
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Now watch the result for 1912 when I change things.

EID-2.png


Ersatz Iron Duke, UK battleship laid down 1912
Displacement:
25,459 t light; 27,140 t standard; 27,698 t normal; 28,144 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(631.27 ft / 623.36 ft) x 98.43 ft x (26.25 / 26.59 ft)
(192.41 m / 190.00 m) x 30.00 m x (8.00 / 8.11 m)
Armament:
12 - 13.50" / 343 mm 45.0 cal guns - 1,241.76lbs / 563.25kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1912 Model
2 x Triple mounts on centreline, forward deck forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
2 x Triple mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread
18 - 6.10" / 155 mm 45.0 cal guns - 114.59lbs / 51.98kg shells, 250 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1912 Model
16 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
18 below deck mounts
6 - 4.72" / 120 mm 45.0 cal guns - 53.17lbs / 24.12kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1912 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 17,054 lbs / 7,735 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.84" / 250 mm 249.34 ft / 76.00 m 11.91 ft / 3.63 m
Ends: 4.92" / 125 mm 373.98 ft / 113.99 m 11.91 ft / 3.63 m
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 249.34 ft / 76.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 62 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
2.95" / 75 mm 249.34 ft / 76.00 m 24.08 ft / 7.34 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 98.43 ft / 30.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 7.87" / 200 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
2nd: 6.10" / 155 mm - 3.94" / 100 mm
3rd: 4.13" / 105 mm - 4.13" / 105 mm
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.95" / 75 mm
Forecastle: 2.95" / 75 mm Quarter deck: 2.95" / 75 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 10.04" / 255 mm, Aft 4.92" / 125 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 33,171 shp / 24,745 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,005 tons
Complement:
1,073 - 1,395
Cost:
£2.583 million / $10.333 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,919 tons, 10.5 %
- Guns: 2,919 tons, 10.5 %
Armour: 8,806 tons, 31.8 %
- Belts: 2,653 tons, 9.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 656 tons, 2.4 %
- Armament: 2,732 tons, 9.9 %
- Armour Deck: 2,470 tons, 8.9 %
- Conning Towers: 295 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 1,323 tons, 4.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,412 tons, 44.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,239 tons, 8.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
51,827 lbs / 23,508 Kg = 42.1 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 8.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 7.2 ft / 2.2 m
Roll period: 15.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.91
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.68
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, low quarterdeck ,
a straight bulbous bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.602 / 0.604
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.33 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.97 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 36
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Aft deck: 20.00 %, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Quarter deck: 40.00 %, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 24.28 ft / 7.40 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 65.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 209.5 %
Waterplane Area: 44,957 Square feet or 4,177 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 227 lbs/sq ft or 1,109 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.03
- Longitudinal: 2.25
- Overall: 1.11
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

I thought there might be some severe compromises. Range is short. The armor is thin. Block coefficient yields a lot more flow drag. She is slow. But I did get a 12 gun broadside out of her!

It was suggested I get rid of the aft deckhouse (secondary steer and fire control, and move the q turret aft. It still turns out that hull lateral load drops below unity and/or block coeff goes up and I lose a knot or 2 or shorten the cruise range or a combo of all attritbutes. What do I give up?

Wet aft secondaries do not bother me as much as wet forward secondaries. (Great White Fleet op-exp.) Given Jutland and the turnaways that Jellicoe was forced to perform, some stern chasers to discourage the Germans would be nice to have. So would more speed and cruiser lines for smart maneuvering and of course torpedo defense from a broader beam.

Additional explanations. I like the G3 three gun house three gun turret G-3 type Iron Duke expy design above better than the four gunhouse triple gun turret iron Duke expy that I bodged to increase broadside. The reason is that I can snug in the turbine rooms under the after deck house and that long quarter deck. I included the after deck house for steerage secondary control and as an after (thought) lower central fire director position. Besides it makes for a British Zeppelin mooring point if the British decide to air recon that way.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This "G3" using 1910/1912 type tech could have been ready in time for Jutland and might have been suitable for the Falklands pursuit role as well. Notice that it does not embrace the AON design philosophy, because it really does not have to do so? Also notice that its secondary hull mounted casemate battery is more "German" in that I expected that its destroyer and cruiser support overseas might be lacking?

Now as to the argument that rates of fire would be slower, shell dispersion a bit more and that a one gun-house knockout would result in no effective laddering and therefore a mission kill for the battleship involved, or that 3 knots (2 m/s) makes no difference. I can attest that these factors were real concerns.

Comparatively speaking, the kill shots that mission killed a WW I battleship were to control stations and communications, just as in the case of WW II battleships from the reading I've done on these monsters. The most important fact I can give you is that in :"fire for effect"; once a central fire control system and the human tracking party that used it, had a good track solution they needed visually, a three or four splash group to visually correct to adjust left-right or short-long. The reason for four or five two-gun or dual-gun gunhouses on British or German ships was because the tacticians wanted to be able to split fire between two targets if they needed the ship to do so. Same for primary and secondary control positions; split fires required split directors for split aiming. The human factor to adjust fires dictated main armament layouts. A three gun-house layout with three-gun turrets or triple gun turrets was about the absolute minimum for WW I tactical requirements. The split directors was another needed feature if one demanded split fires capability.

Based on British barbette designs, ammunition stowage and other internal factors, a three gun house Iron Duke is going to be broader with a blank quarterdeck to carry the added armor, the added torpedo defense, the added secondary guns and the added fuel. For this she gains three knots (2 m/s) is more stable, (more stable than a Kongo), has a better shorter armored main citadel still has better overall defense against quick fire guns for and aft and can be expeditionary as opposed to North Sea restricted. The big drawback is that she is short-ranged. Incredibly short ranged. But she is better than the Indomitables or other early British battle cruisers.
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
Are we talking 3 triple turrets?

HMS Queen Elizabeth, Great Britain
AoN Fast Battleship laid down 1912 (Engine 1913)

Displacement:
30,434 t light; 32,757 t standard; 35,165 t normal; 37,091 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(674.04 ft / 666.00 ft) x 105.00 ft x (32.00 / 33.38 ft)
(205.45 m / 203.00 m) x 32.00 m x (9.75 / 10.17 m)

Armament:
9 - 15.00" / 381 mm 42.0 cal guns - 1,890.00lbs / 857.29kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
3 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm 42.0 cal guns - 60.61lbs / 27.49kg shells, 300 per gun
Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, aft deck forward
6 x Twin mounts on sides, forward deck aft
2 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 18,222 lbs / 8,265 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 390.00 ft / 118.87 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined 10.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.75" / 44 mm 432.90 ft / 131.95 m 30.29 ft / 9.23 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 80.00 ft / 24.38 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 9.00" / 229 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 1.50" / 38 mm 1.50" / 38 mm 1.00" / 25 mm

- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 5.00" / 127 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 2.00" / 51 mm, Aft 2.00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 82,955 shp / 61,884 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 5,999nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,334 tons

Complement:
1,283 - 1,669

Cost:
£2.910 million / $11.638 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,543 tons, 7.2 %
- Guns: 2,543 tons, 7.2 %
Armour: 10,400 tons, 29.6 %
- Belts: 3,394 tons, 9.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 849 tons, 2.4 %
- Armament: 2,360 tons, 6.7 %
- Armour Deck: 3,705 tons, 10.5 %
- Conning Towers: 92 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 3,251 tons, 9.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,241 tons, 40.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,731 tons, 13.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
51,539 lbs / 23,378 Kg = 30.5 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 8.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 7.6 ft / 2.3 m
Roll period: 16.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.31

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
an extended bulbous bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.556
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.34 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 30.00 ft / 9.14 m, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 21.88 ft / 6.67 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.6 %
Waterplane Area: 48,803 Square feet or 4,534 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 222 lbs/sq ft or 1,084 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.90
- Overall: 1.07
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

If only this was the standard set for all following classes. I opted for USN shell compatible 5 inch secondary twin turrets. When Dual Purpose becomes a thing they will be remounted with +75° elevation. Does All or Nothing make hull extension easier? Only a natural speed of <26knots is going to look slow later.
 
Last edited:

Dave Shoup

Banned
Brooklyn's main battery? was all 8"/35. She was by "accident" the first all big gun warship to ever see combat, with a 6 barrel broadside that could ladder in.

USS Brooklyn (1896 edition) got a lot of things right; her design (BuShips and Cramp, ISTR) definitely laid out a path that could have been followed to a more efficient "heavy" cruiser after the turn of the century. A "Big 10" sized design, but with 4x2 superfiring main battery turrets (presumably, 8/40), a version of AON for armored cruisers, and a moderate increase of speed (25 kts might have required turbines), and the range necessary for Pacific operations would have made for an balanced design and an interesting contrast to the Pennsylvania and Tennessee-class armored cruisers.
 
Top