PC: Classical Old World discovering the America's?

It is virtually impossible for reasons already mentioned. Even if a few classical ancient sailors did stumble on the Americas (blown across the atlantic by a storm on their way to the Canary Islands, etc), they'd never try to sail back and its quite obvious (except to "fringe" theorists) that they had absolutely no infliuence on cultures in the new world.

Leaving out the Norse, the only reason the new world was "discovered" in the 15th century was because of geopolitical issues involving Islam and Chrisitainity and the search for a reliable European trade route to China and India. These issues did not occur in antiquity, and if one presumes some continuation of ancient Roman, Parthian, and Chinese civilization into the post AD400 period to the point a surviving Roman Empire needed to look west to reach China, this is another alternate TL altogether and has nothing to do with "classical antiquity".
 
Weren't the polynesians experts at navigating the ocean via the stars? If so, then it is definitely possible for the Phoenicians to put their expertise in using the stars to navigate to the test. They just need a reason.
 
Weren't the polynesians experts at navigating the ocean via the stars? If so, then it is definitely possible for the Phoenicians to put their expertise in using the stars to navigate to the test. They just need a reason.

Well, using the stars to navigate the Mediterranean (where land is never really that far) and the Atlantic (big, stormy, unknown currents) are two very different things. Also, there was no North Star at this point, so that very brightest of the stars (uh, except for the sun, from our perspective) is out of the question for use in navigation.
 
As several people have already pointed out in this thread, the "random Classical ship blown out to the Americas" notions don't work. Even getting a ship there is highly improbable; getting such a ship home again is virtually impossible.

What's needed is a POD which leads to the build up of a long-range navigational tradition in some Classical power. Even that is no guarantee of discovering the Americas, but at least it moves it into the realm of the conceivable.

A surviving Carthage is the most obvious possibility for that- the Phonecians at least had the beginnings of the required maritime tradition. Possibly some movement of peoples in Central Europe cuts off the Baltic amber routes, and Carthage goes exploring up to the Baltic to reopen the trade. That's not enough in itself, but it would at least start the practice of long-range sailing through rougher waters than the Med.
 
Something to remind folks. As I said in the OP, this is not restricted merely to Classical Era Europe. I include all of Asia in the list, figuring out of anyone else China at least would have the potential.
 
Weren't the polynesians experts at navigating the ocean via the stars? If so, then it is definitely possible for the Phoenicians to put their expertise in using the stars to navigate to the test. They just need a reason.

They also learned early on (unlike European sailors) that certain clouds form from hot air rising off sand. They looked for those clouds and headed towards them since odds were there'd be an island or two worth settling over yonder. What's really amazing is that sailors like Magelleon sailed across the Pacific and never found any of these islands. That's like driving through a whole State and missing all the off ramps.
 
Something to remind folks. As I said in the OP, this is not restricted merely to Classical Era Europe. I include all of Asia in the list, figuring out of anyone else China at least would have the potential.

They did, but historically speaking the Chinese weren't overly interested in the outside world. When Europeans (I'm not sure what they traded the Romans for on the Silk Road) tried to trade with them, and brought all their European goods, the Chinese were not exactly impressed. That being said, the Asian and North American coasts of the North Pacific is going to have far less to offer. The Chinese did have large ships (though the largest would not be until the Ming in the 15th Century) but those were mostly coastal vessels. Yes, they could have sailed along the coast, but probably would have yawned once past Korean and turned around.
 
Not to mention that the Pacific Ocean is about twice the width of the Atlantic and, being on about the same latitude as Europe, the Chinese will have about twice the distance to travel. I know that they have more islands in between, but it doesn't help that they then have to use people and resources to appropriate those islands. And they wouldn't, because there's no reason to; what possible valuable resource does a pacific island have to the Chinese in classical times?
 
Could there be the accidental voyage, but with no attempt at return? Like, a few ships of Carthaginians ending up in OTL Brazil, and just never attempting to return?
 
Could there be the accidental voyage, but with no attempt at return? Like, a few ships of Carthaginians ending up in OTL Brazil, and just never attempting to return?

Brazil was first reached by the Portuguese (Pedro Álvares Cabrall) using the proven Volta do mar technique. It took them approx. a month from their last landfall to reach the Brazilian coast. It helped that the Portuguese were familiar with the necessary tradewinds (and had the compass) to make their voyage a success.

For the Phoenicians, it would be far more of a crapshoot, not knowing the tradewinds although probably knowing of the Canary Current. If the Phoenician ships could carry a minimum 4 or 5 week (probably even more) supply of water and provender, then, I suppose it would be possible to make a one-way trip. I don't know enough of the sailing abilities of Phoenician craft (they were built stoutly enough, as I mentioned) but it most likely isn't nearly as capable as a Portuguese Nau in variable winds or as capacious or purpose-built to survive heavy Atlantic seas. Again, the Portuguese were aware that there were lands across the Atlantic. The Phoenicians would not have.

The longest voyages that the Phoenicians took out of site of land on a regular basis would most likely have been Carthage to Phoenicia (or Egypt). A week to a couple of weeks sail/row tops if everything was against them. Their exploratory sailing along Africa involved many landings and they wouldn't be far from landfall. Same for reaching the tin mines of Briton.

Some interesting info here about travel times by sea in Roman times:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Journals/TAPA/82/Speed_under_Sail_of_Ancient_Ships*.html
 
Well, using the stars to navigate the Mediterranean (where land is never really that far) and the Atlantic (big, stormy, unknown currents) are two very different things. Also, there was no North Star at this point, so that very brightest of the stars (uh, except for the sun, from our perspective) is out of the question for use in navigation.
The Polynesians were in the Pacific...


Also, would it be probably once the size of the earth is determined by Eratosthenes for some groups (such as the Phoenicians) to come to the belief that there must be some landmass between Europe and China? I do recall reading somewhere that there were some people in the ancient world who did think this, but I can't find it for my life.
 
Leaving out cultural and political issues, from a technological and geographical perspective it would be far easier for the Chinese or another Asian civilization like Jomon Japan to "discover" and/or colonize the new world than any European or North African civilization. To get from China to the Americas, one can island- and coast-hop from east Asia through the Aleutians to Norh America. Although the climate sucks and voyages would still be dangerous you'd never be that far from land and there would be Inuit and Native American you could trade with along the way Plus, to the voyagers, this would not seem to be anything radically different from what coastal and maritime peoples in Asia had already been doing for millennia, Plus, it you consider the striking similarities between Northwest Coast Indian and early Japanese/Siberian art and iconography, its almost certain that such contacts did occur on occasion. Just get China interested in exploration 1000 years earlier than the short-lived great fleet era and, who knows, when Cortez sets foot in Mexico, he may encounter a Mexican civilization with iron weapons, gunpowder, and a Chinese-based written script.
 
Just get China interested in exploration 1000 years earlier than the short-lived great fleet era and, who knows, when Cortez sets foot in Mexico, he may encounter a Mexican civilization with iron weapons, gunpowder, and a Chinese-based written script.
Minor quibble: unless the Chinese exploration is very late, you'd more likely see the ATL Mexicans using a Mayan-derived script or something similar to Epi-Olmec since Chinese would have no advantages over either of those two, being a logo-syllabic script just like them but with more characters and no cultural context which would make it easier for Mexican writers to get the meaning of certain characters.
 
Something to remind folks. As I said in the OP, this is not restricted merely to Classical Era Europe. I include all of Asia in the list, figuring out of anyone else China at least would have the potential.

Historically, China was never interested in direct expansion overseas, and was perfectly content with vassalizing its neighbors, as it considered itself to be culturally superior, along with other reasons such as logistics. It's also worth noting that beyond Korea, Japan, and Vietnam, no other country widely adopted and thoroughly integrated Chinese culture until the last several centuries, when widespread emigration to Southeast Asia began to gradually influence the region, without dominating for the most part. See below.

They did, but historically speaking the Chinese weren't overly interested in the outside world. When Europeans (I'm not sure what they traded the Romans for on the Silk Road) tried to trade with them, and brought all their European goods, the Chinese were not exactly impressed. That being said, the Asian and North American coasts of the North Pacific is going to have far less to offer. The Chinese did have large ships (though the largest would not be until the Ming in the 15th Century) but those were mostly coastal vessels. Yes, they could have sailed along the coast, but probably would have yawned once past Korean and turned around.

Agreed. In addition, China had no desire to directly expand into Eastern Manchuria, the southern Korean Peninsula, or the Japanese archipelago before the 7th century, and with a brief exception during the Tang, it never directly controlled most of Manchuria until the Yuan and the Qing, while the Ming only held Liaodong. The statelets in question remained unconsolidated until the 4th-7th centuries for China to generally ignore them apart from tribute, and would have been centralized enough afterwards to resist foreign attempts to take them over by force. As a result, considering that China was much more concerned with tributary relations for over two millennia, along with heqin, which involved providing princesses to nomadic states for marriage when they proved to be militarily "equal," it would have been content with stable diplomatic and trading relations within East, Central, and Southeast Asia, making it extremely difficult to send ships overseas across the Pacific when it was already benefiting to a large extent. On the other hand, the tributaries in question would have been perfectly content with the large volume of trade from China, along with their neighbors, preventing them from looking overseas to fulfill their needs.

Leaving out cultural and political issues, from a technological and geographical perspective it would be far easier for the Chinese or another Asian civilization like Jomon Japan to "discover" and/or colonize the new world than any European or North African civilization. To get from China to the Americas, one can island- and coast-hop from east Asia through the Aleutians to Norh America. Although the climate sucks and voyages would still be dangerous you'd never be that far from land and there would be Inuit and Native American you could trade with along the way Plus, to the voyagers, this would not seem to be anything radically different from what coastal and maritime peoples in Asia had already been doing for millennia, Plus, it you consider the striking similarities between Northwest Coast Indian and early Japanese/Siberian art and iconography, its almost certain that such contacts did occur on occasion. Just get China interested in exploration 1000 years earlier than the short-lived great fleet era and, who knows, when Cortez sets foot in Mexico, he may encounter a Mexican civilization with iron weapons, gunpowder, and a Chinese-based written script.

See above. A few tentative explorations might occur after 1000, but widespread expeditions sponsored by the state are essentially impossible due to logistics and funding.
 
Hmm...perhaps an eccentric (possibly even slightly crazy) but intelligent Chinese Merchant/Noble gets a strange dream/vision of colonizing a new and strange land, and gathers a personal expedition to go do such? He then stumbles upon the America's, sets up an initial colony, and once its on its feet, sails back to bring word to Asia?
 
Hmm...perhaps an eccentric (possibly even slightly crazy) but intelligent Chinese Merchant/Noble gets a strange dream/vision of colonizing a new and strange land, and gathers a personal expedition to go do such? He then stumbles upon the America's, sets up an initial colony, and once its on its feet, sails back to bring word to Asia?

Until the Six Dynasties (220-589), when widespread southern emigration occurred due to chaos in the north, South China, the Mongolian Steppe, Northeast Asia, the Tarim Basin, Tibetan Plateau, and Southeast Asia were all technically considered to be "new and strange" lands, not to mention that some consisted of various far-flung coastal regions that the Chinese had actively traded with for centuries before then. The fact that China took centuries to consolidate its holdings within South China, and only had varying degrees of control over Central Asia and Vietnam, suggests that it would not have enough resources to consider further significant expansions overseas, not to mention military resistance.

In addition, considering the extensive distance between East Asia and the Americas, any individual willing to traverse the Pacific in any form would need a significant amount of settlers and resources to successfully form a long-lasting colony that is essentially isolated from China at least for decades, if not centuries. Even if the merchant/noble somehow has the foresight to realize this, he will probably be arrested and executed for "planning" an uprising long before the expedition is underway, as merchants, who had been ranked under Confucianism as the lowest of the four classes, were generally treated with suspicion, while any noble with enough resources has much more incentive to stage a revolt with the assistance of a large army and eventually establish an autonomous government within China. Going back and forth across essentially half the world would also entail a significant loss of settlers and resources during the process, making a two-way journey extremely unlikely, if not impossible, before the "colony" loses all contact with China.
 
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