PC: Beauharnais Grand Duchy of Frankfurt

[Iserlohn]

out of curiosity @Iserlohn @isabella , what would the chances be of the actual HRE being restored? The German Confederation was essentially the HRE in form if not name (at least according to some). And what would the consequences be of such a restoration?

I'd say incredibly low.

The combination of Austria becoming more interested in Italy and the Balkans, the rise of Prussia as a powerful state both east and west of the Elbe, and the end of ecclesiastic states in the German-speaking world really make a formal restoration of the HRE very unlikely.

Half of the College of Princes thus no longer existed and the Bundesversammlung, as an institution, was far more balanced than the secular half of the House of Princes, with its eleven independent votes and six plural votes for groups of smaller states. It should also be noted that the German Confederation didn't have a formalized head, and while there were discussions to introduce such a position, they ultimately failed because everyone knew it would either be the King of Prussia or the Austrian Emperor who would become "president" (Austria's own imperial title was also explicitly created to allow the Habsburg to maintain an imperial-level title without risking losing it, especially to a foreign invader like Napoleon). Plus the surviving/restored Electors (Baden, Bavaria, Bohemia/Austria, Brandenburg/Prussia, Brunswick-Lüneburg/Hannover, Hessen-Kassel, Saxony, Württemberg) were a mixed bag: Baden and Württemberg were often seen as "upstarts", while Saxony could consider itself lucky to still exist, and Hessen-Kassel was a minor player in the grand scheme of things.

If, for some reason, a more centralized Holy Roman Empire would have been created, or the German Confederation more closely modeled on the HRE, then it likely would have been a more unstable structure, and the 1848 Revolutions may have caused it to not get restored even if the revolutions were still crushed. Instead an adoption of the Erfurter Union or a permanent north-south divide would likely have replaced it then.​

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

@Iserlohn

I was wondering something re: the Saxon Question.

Would it be possible to do a swap, not of Saxony for the Palatinate, but that Prussia receives the whole of Saxony while Saxony receives the grand duchy of Warsaw/Posen. Metternich had no problem with promising the Prussian minister ALL of Saxony, but Zamoyski points out in his Rites of Peace that "it was only once they knew how much of their old Polish territory they were going to recover [from Alexander I] thay Austria and Prussia could proceed with a division of spoils and influence in Germany". Emperor Franz and the whole of Catholic southern Germany were against the outright abolition of the kingdom of Saxony, they were "determined that at least part of it should be preserved for its rightful king". That part would just happen to speak Polish,not German.

@Jan Olbracht @alexmilman @Zygmunt Stary

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

@Iserlohn

I was wondering something re: the Saxon Question.

Would it be possible to do a swap, not of Saxony for the Palatinate, but that Prussia receives the whole of Saxony while Saxony receives the grand duchy of Warsaw/Posen. Metternich had no problem with promising the Prussian minister ALL of Saxony, but Zamoyski points out in his Rites of Peace that "it was only once they knew how much of their old Polish territory they were going to recover [from Alexander I] thay Austria and Prussia could proceed with a division of spoils and influence in Germany". Emperor Franz and the whole of Catholic southern Germany were against the outright abolition of the kingdom of Saxony, they were "determined that at least part of it should be preserved for its rightful king". That part would just happen to speak Polish,not German.

@Jan Olbracht @alexmilman @Zygmunt Stary

Dunno if Grand Duchy of Warsaw would be considered part of Saxony.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

@Iserlohn

I was wondering something re: the Saxon Question.

Would it be possible to do a swap, not of Saxony for the Palatinate, but that Prussia receives the whole of Saxony while Saxony receives the grand duchy of Warsaw/Posen. Metternich had no problem with promising the Prussian minister ALL of Saxony, but Zamoyski points out in his Rites of Peace that "it was only once they knew how much of their old Polish territory they were going to recover [from Alexander I] thay Austria and Prussia could proceed with a division of spoils and influence in Germany". Emperor Franz and the whole of Catholic southern Germany were against the outright abolition of the kingdom of Saxony, they were "determined that at least part of it should be preserved for its rightful king". That part would just happen to speak Polish,not German.

@Jan Olbracht @alexmilman @Zygmunt Stary

Alexander would have to give up his Polish ambitions for this to be even possible.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

@Iserlohn

Do we know what the haggling with second-tier states, Nassau and Mecklenburg, was in Germany?

I know Willem I of the Netherlands wanted a land-corridor to the duchy of Nassau from the Netherlands, but what did the actual duke of Nassau (formerly Nassau-Üsingen) or his Weilburg cousin want/get at Vienna?

Also, did Mecklenburg get anything besides an elevation to grand ducal status? FWIR, Prussia's been trying to take the state over since the 7YW (presumably for sea access?). So did Vienna just get the grand ducal bump up and told "be grateful we're giving you that"?

 

[Iserlohn]

@Iserlohn

Do we know what the haggling with second-tier states, Nassau and Mecklenburg, was in Germany?

I know Willem I of the Netherlands wanted a land-corridor to the duchy of Nassau from the Netherlands, but what did the actual duke of Nassau (formerly Nassau-Üsingen) or his Weilburg cousin want/get at Vienna?

Also, did Mecklenburg get anything besides an elevation to grand ducal status? FWIR, Prussia's been trying to take the state over since the 7YW (presumably for sea access?). So did Vienna just get the grand ducal bump up and told "be grateful we're giving you that"?​

I've found a few notes on the Mecklenburgs and Nassau, though not that much from the states itself, but rather a lot of stuff involving the greater powers and their plans for these territories...

Mecklenburg-Schwerin & -Strelitz:
- Strelitz was represented by its crown prince, Georg, who would succeed his father in 1816; Georg, together with the regent of Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt, Princess Karoline, were imploring the Prussian diplomat Wilhelm von Humboldt to work towards the goal of securing the independence/avoid the mediatization of their states; similar conversations with more prominent diplomats are recorded about Schwerin's envoy, Leopold von Plessen
- in the Hardenberg proposal put forward by Prussia at the beginning of the Congress to reorganize the German states, he apparently suggested that Prussia should annex most North German statelets; generally the list of "surviving" North German states seems to have been limited to Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach, Sachsen-Coburg-Saalfeld, Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Mecklenburg-Strelitz, Oldenburg, and Hannover; the Hessian states were to remain independent but Waldeck-Pyrmont was to be annexed by Prussia
- the adopted heir of the Swedish king, Marshall Jean Baptiste Bernadotte, was apparently hesitant to cede Swedish Pommerania; he apparently suggested that Denmark, which was supposed to receive that territory as compensation for ceding Norway, could gain (parts?) of Mecklenburg instead
- in general it appears that Prussia wasn't that interested at the time to annex the two elevated Grand Duchies, often using rhetoric about honoring the historic dynasties like the Obotrites/Mecklenburgs, though there was the clear implication that Berlin wanted them in their sphere of influence
- it also seems very appaarent that the leadership of the two Mecklenburgs was mostly concerned with ensuring their states' survivals and matters on how the successor to the Holy Roman Empire would function, not territorial acquisitions

Nassau:
- Berlin was very much interested in annexing parts of historic Nassau lands for strategic reasons, as one can see by their annexation of Wetzlar and surrounding lands (a lot of that region was owned by the House of Nassau-Weilburg) and the Siegerland (which was part of Orange-Nassau historically); I've seen some comments that Siegen was directly swapped for Luxembourg, but I haven't seen anything that reads as very concrete that would prove that; Prussia in that proposal would have kept Kleve, Mark, Berg, the former Duchy of Westfalen, the Nassau lands, and the cities of Mainz and Wetzlar; it did not intend to share a direct border with France at that time
- on a similar note, in the Hardenberg proposal I mentioned regarding the Mecklenburgs, Hardenberg suggested that the French-German border should be controled by Hessen-Darmstadt, Baden, and the two Nassau branches of Weilburg and Usingen; the latter two were however to lose their core lands, instead being compensated with new territory closer to or ideally adjacent to the Dutch border; the Netherlands were to gain most of Luxembourg, including the city and fortress
- in a second version of the Hardenberg proposal submitted in late 1814, Prussia suggested that the Rhineland should be partitioned between the Austrians and Prussians, with Vienna gaining all territory south of the Moselle, as well as Luxembourg and the direct environs of Trier; Prussia would gain Jülich & the former lands of the Electorate of Köln by the Rhine, as well as the remainder of Trier; the Hessian states and the two Nassaus would be confined to territory just to the Rhine's right bank
- Hans Christoph Ernst von Gagern was the primary delegate of the Dutch at Vienna and he was the one that ultimately managed to lay the groundworks for the formation of the Duchy of Nassau; he and his patron Willem I. of Orange-Nassau were intent on establishing a power bloc consisting of Hannover, Braunschweig, Nassau, Hessen-Darmstadt, and Hessen-Kassel that would represent Dutch security concerns about Prussia and help with maintaining Austria dominance over the German states
- in terms of territorial gains, Nassau was primarily interested in keeping what it had gained by the start of 1814, s. the map below for a great comparison; of special note here is that Prussia successfully pushed to gain the fortress of Ehrenbreitstein opposite of Koblenz, just south of the town of Vallendar; it's quite likely that if Nassau didn't lose these territories, they wouldn't have gotten Katzenelnbogen, a former Hessian exclave but administered by France during the Napoleonic Wars despite its position on the right bank of the Rhine, as compensation

​

 

[TrickyApe]

There were some issues of family relationship and timing in the background with both Mecklenburg and Nassau also. Both had connections and the claim to have served the Allies in the war.

There was a marriage relationship between the Mecklenburg - Schwerin rulers and the Romanovs and both Mecklenburgs joined the Allies early in 1813, well before Leipzig.

Nassau was a little more complex but apparently the future Willem I of the Netherlands was regarded as general head of the House of Orange - Nassau, despite not actually having sovereign lands at the time. He was related to the Prussian royal house and came over to the Allies in March 1813, after meeting with Emperor Alexander in Silesia. Of course he couldn't offer much at the time, but he did arrange the defection of the Nassau contingent assigned to the French armies in Spain around the end of the year, and they actually sailed for Plymouth and then were diverted to the Netherlands in January 1814.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Nassau was a little more complex but apparently the future Willem I of the Netherlands was regarded as general head of the House of Orange - Nassau,

Orange-Nassau, yes. The dukes of Nassau in Üsingen and Weilburg were from the senior (Walramian) branch- can never remember which is the more senior, so it turns into a very "Habsburg" scenario where the holder of the more important title (emperor) isn't automatically the head of the whole family. And that's before we get into the whole mess that the Dutch branch was Calvinist and the German branch was Lutheran.

Üsingen accepted his elevation to ducal status (by Napoléon) conditional that he agree to Weilburg as his heir. IIRC there was something like the two lines were to alternate in who got to be duke.

And Willem I wasn't exactly a clean pair of hands, he'd accepted the principality of Fulda (and other lands) from Napoléon OTL, but lost them again for picking the wrong side

 

[TrickyApe]

Orange-Nassau, yes. The dukes of Nassau in Üsingen and Weilburg were from the senior (Walramian) branch- can never remember which is the more senior, so it turns into a very "Habsburg" scenario where the holder of the more important title (emperor) isn't automatically the head of the whole family. And that's before we get into the whole mess that the Dutch branch was Calvinist and the German branch was Lutheran.

Apparently this was resolved by the family in 1783:

But with the signing of the ‘Nassauischer Erbverein’, the Union of Inheritance of 1783, the
intra-dynastic ties took on a new meaning. The act guaranteed that the Nassau
lands remained an undivided entity and that alienation of Nassau lands
was forbidden. Moreover, it established a clear line of succession within the
dynasty. The Prince of Orange-Nassau-Dietz, who was already de facto primus
inter pares became President of the House of Nassau. But the act was not merely
aimed at pre-empting potential intra-dynastic disputes over succession
and territory. It was also a commitment to collaborate in international
politics. In the multipolar international order of the 1780s, this dynastic
alliance makes much sense.
(Mark Edward Hay, "Russia, Britain and the House of Nassau,
The Re-Establishment of the Orange Dynasty in the Netherlands,
March-November 1813", 2018)

And Willem I wasn't exactly a clean pair of hands, he'd accepted the principality of Fulda (and other lands) from Napoléon OTL, but lost them again for picking the wrong side

But then whose hands were clean? Even Britain made peace with and recognized the Consular regime in 1802 and practically everyone else was not only at peace with but an active ally of Napoleon at some point or another.

 

[OxSpace]

Do we know what the haggling with second-tier states, Nassau and Mecklenburg, was in Germany?

I've found a few notes on the Mecklenburgs and Nassau, though not that much from the states itself, but rather a lot of stuff involving the greater powers and their plans for these territories...

As far as Mecklenburg-Schwerin is concerned, being the first states to abandon Napoleon, they had hoped for relative territorial compensation. Their immediate interests were Neuvorpommern (Swedish Pomerania) since it became clear that the Swedish government was not averse to freeing itself from its last continental possessions; though it was far more apparent that this would be done through a friendly agreement with Prussia. Other areas of interest for Schwerin were Lauenburg, which had been taken by Hanover in 1689 and to which Schwerin had a claim based on old inheritance treaties. More minimalist claims were the Amt Neuhaus, another Hanover territory that crossed the Elbe -- and of which that was retained by Hanover despite the cession of Lauenburg. Swedish Wismar was also an issue that they wanted to be resolved. In 1803, Sweden ceded Wismar to Mecklenburg as a pledge possession, along with the offices of Poel and Neukloster, in exchange for a monetary compensation of 187,500 thalers. Sweden was to be free to redeem the pledged city and lordship after 100 years upon repayment of the pledged sum with 3 percent interest. In 1903, it would have been 96 million kroner (there was never any thought of paying such a sum). Mecklenburg had hoped for a formal cession.

As far as Mecklenburg-Strelitz, they had to meet Articles 49 and 50 of the Act of Congress on a territory of 10,000 souls on the left bank of the Rhine (in a similar fashion to Oldenburg & Frankfurt). Prussia had granted Mecklenburg-Strelitz the former cantons of Kronenburg (without the communities of Steffler and Schuler) with 2795 inhabitants, Reifferscheid with 3620 inhabitants, and Schleyden (excluding the community of Wolfsseiffen) with 3917 inhabitants, which together represented a population of 10332 souls. But since these parts of the area are separate and far away, and on the other hand, were already united with Prussia and surrounded by it, it was agreed on both sides to conclude another agreement and to transfer the territories for a maximum of one year from this contract onwards. Until this transfer, the area should only belong to Prussia. remain subject to national sovereignty. The negotiations on this matter between the two states, which have since continued, concluded on May 21, 1819.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Kronenburg (without the communities of Steffler and Schuler) with 2795 inhabitants,

what on earth was Mecklenburg-Strelitz supposed to do with these three territories carved off the duchy of Luxembourg?

 

[OxSpace]

what on earth was Mecklenburg-Strelitz supposed to do with these three territories carved off the duchy of Luxembourg?

Tax. But it was completely indefensible. But not much different than Birkenfeld or Lichtenberg. Considering the reactionary nature of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, it's a rather untenable piece of land considering the local population's preference for the French legal system.

 

[Iserlohn]

As far as Mecklenburg-Schwerin is concerned, being the first states to abandon Napoleon, they had hoped for relative territorial compensation. Their immediate interests were Neuvorpommern (Swedish Pomerania) since it became clear that the Swedish government was not averse to freeing itself from its last continental possessions; though it was far more apparent that this would be done through a friendly agreement with Prussia. Other areas of interest for Schwerin were Lauenburg, which had been taken by Hanover in 1689 and to which Schwerin had a claim based on old inheritance treaties. More minimalist claims were the Amt Neuhaus, another Hanover territory that crossed the Elbe -- and of which that was retained by Hanover despite the cession of Lauenburg. Swedish Wismar was also an issue that they wanted to be resolved. In 1803, Sweden ceded Wismar to Mecklenburg as a pledge possession, along with the offices of Poel and Neukloster, in exchange for a monetary compensation of 187,500 thalers. Sweden was to be free to redeem the pledged city and lordship after 100 years upon repayment of the pledged sum with 3 percent interest. In 1903, it would have been 96 million kroner (there was never any thought of paying such a sum). Mecklenburg had hoped for a formal cession.

As far as Mecklenburg-Strelitz, they had to meet Articles 49 and 50 of the Act of Congress on a territory of 10,000 souls on the left bank of the Rhine (in a similar fashion to Oldenburg & Frankfurt). Prussia had granted Mecklenburg-Strelitz the former cantons of Kronenburg (without the communities of Steffler and Schuler) with 2795 inhabitants, Reifferscheid with 3620 inhabitants, and Schleyden (excluding the community of Wolfsseiffen) with 3917 inhabitants, which together represented a population of 10332 souls. But since these parts of the area are separate and far away, and on the other hand, were already united with Prussia and surrounded by it, it was agreed on both sides to conclude another agreement and to transfer the territories for a maximum of one year from this contract onwards. Until this transfer, the area should only belong to Prussia. remain subject to national sovereignty. The negotiations on this matter between the two states, which have since continued, concluded on May 21, 1819.

Oh yeah, I remember having seen Mecklenburg-Strelitz in the final Kongressakte with that provision. I forgot about that.

And the stuff you found about Schwerin's hoped expansion is super interesting and sensible. With a bit of luck they totally could have gotten some of these territories. Amt Neuhaus would be kinda ironic given it's status post-WW2, and that may lead to Hannover getting a bit more of the Eichsfeld or a small bit of Westphalia in exchange though, given the trend of Prussia making up for reduced Hannoverian gains.

And @Kellan Sullivan this map showing the legal systems in use in use in the German Empire in 1890 is probably a good indicator for how difficult it would be for Strelitz to hold that territory.

Those reddish brown territories in the Rhineland are where French civil still applied, with Birkenfeld and Rheinhessen having both French civil law and other local laws.​

 

[OxSpace]

Oh yeah, I remember having seen Mecklenburg-Strelitz in the final Kongressakte with that provision. I forgot about that.

And the stuff you found about Schwerin's hoped expansion is super interesting and sensible. With a bit of luck they totally could have gotten some of these territories. Amt Neuhaus would be kinda ironic given it's status post-WW2, and that may lead to Hannover getting a bit more of the Eichsfeld or a small bit of Westphalia in exchange though, given the trend of Prussia making up for reduced Hannoverian gains.

Well, it's certainly not surprising it's only ever talked about in footnotes considering Strelitz never actually sent representatives to formally claim the territory & was already favored in simply giving the land back to Prussia. It was a dead-end territory but still interesting to point out.

Mecklenburg-Schwerin faced the same troubles that Oldenburg faced in that there was no tangible support for their aspirations. I suppose Prussia could give Hanover the rest of Lingen & maybe Tecklenburg but I don't have any population figures to come to a confident conclusion that they'd be reasonable. Though in any case Schwerin would just be given free territory. Maybe if they agreed to round out the border with Prussia and cede their exclaves they might get better treatment.

 

[Iserlohn]

Well, it's certainly not surprising it's only ever talked about in footnotes considering Strelitz never actually sent representatives to formally claim the territory & was already favored in simply giving the land back to Prussia. It was a dead-end territory but still interesting to point out.

Mecklenburg-Schwerin faced the same troubles that Oldenburg faced in that there was no tangible support for their aspirations. I suppose Prussia could give Hanover the rest of Lingen & maybe Tecklenburg but I don't have any population figures to come to a confident conclusion that they'd be reasonable. Though in any case Schwerin would just be given free territory. Maybe if they agreed to round out the border with Prussia and cede their exclaves they might get better treatment.

While it's not a convenient-to-use source, I did check HIS-Data, which has some population data from before the 1870s for Westphalia in particular. Demographic statistics of that time are indeed super difficult to get a hold of in most circumstances, with the real boom of available data only beginning with the unification of Germany in 1871.

For Tecklenburg, it lists a 1787 population of 17,197. While e.g. I couldn't find anything from ~1800 about the potential possessions Hannover could cede, there's one educated guess I can make based on both the current population statistics for it and the stuff I could find for 1910 at gemeindeverzeichnis.de, Amt Neuhaus definitely had a smaller population at that time. For 1910 that website lists a population of ~5,500 people, using the localities list of Wikipedia as my guide. Today Amt Neuhaus roughly has the same population.

If Prussia would grant Hannover Tecklenburg in exchange for Schwerin getting Amt Neuhaus and Prussia keeping e.g. the direct surroundings of the town of Duderstadt in the Eichsfeld, which according to Wikipedia had an 1890 population of 4,809 people, plus a few villages around it, it would be a very even trade, and it would wouldn't require changing the ring swap around Lauenburg and Swedish Pommerania that happened IOTL.

If you'd combine that with Prussia giving Schwerin the Säben Dörper to Schwerin (maybe swapping them for its exclaves of Netzeband & Schönberg) and the two exclaves it had in Strelitz to them... I think that that's very realistic and, given the weak but clearly present sympathy Prussia had for the Mecklenburgs IOTL, far from out of the question.

EDIT: Though, of course, the cession in the northern Eichsfeld was because of Hessen-Kassel not agreeing to sell their section of Schaumburg to Hannover... But the basic premise still stands. Neuhaus would be a minor cession and Tecklenburg noticeably larger without being a major Prussian loss.​

 

[OxSpace]

While it's not a convenient-to-use source, I did check HIS-Data, which has some population data from before the 1870s for Westphalia in particular. Demographic statistics of that time are indeed super difficult to get a hold of in most circumstances, with the real boom of available data only beginning with the unification of Germany in 1871.

For Tecklenburg, it lists a 1787 population of 17,197. While e.g. I couldn't find anything from ~1800 about the potential possessions Hannover could cede, there's one educated guess I can make based on both the current population statistics for it and the stuff I could find for 1910 at gemeindeverzeichnis.de, Amt Neuhaus definitely had a smaller population at that time. For 1910 that website lists a population of ~5,500 people, using the localities list of Wikipedia as my guide. Today Amt Neuhaus roughly has the same population.

If Prussia would grant Hannover Tecklenburg in exchange for Schwerin getting Amt Neuhaus and Prussia keeping e.g. the direct surroundings of the town of Duderstadt in the Eichsfeld, which according to Wikipedia had an 1890 population of 4,809 people, plus a few villages around it, it would be a very even trade, and it would wouldn't require changing the ring swap around Lauenburg and Swedish Pommerania that happened IOTL.

If you'd combine that with Prussia giving Schwerin the Säben Dörper to Schwerin (maybe swapping them for its exclaves of Netzeband & Schönberg) and the two exclaves it had in Strelitz to them... I think that that's very realistic and, given the weak but clearly present sympathy Prussia had for the Mecklenburgs IOTL, far from out of the question.

EDIT: Though, of course, the cession in the northern Eichsfeld was because of Hessen-Kassel not agreeing to sell their section of Schaumburg to Hannover... But the basic premise still stands. Neuhaus would be a minor cession and Tecklenburg noticeably larger without being a major Prussian loss.​

I had to dig through some of my sources that I have buried but I refound some of the statistical data that was used during the congress:

The population figures are taken from 1805

Other sources speak a similar language; this one claims from 1800:

The left is area is square km & the right is the popualtion.

When we look at the aquisitions of Hanover, we see a slightly different number, which is probably accounting for the fact that they only got Niedergrafschaft Lingen & not Obergrafschaft. Plus is also accounts parts of Rheina.

Just for a comparsion for reference:

If these population statistics are right, the remaining of LIngen is presumably around ~6,000-7,000. This is perhaps still more than Prussia should offer. Maybe an alternative is a land connection to the Säben Dörper + the Mecklenburg exclaves.