PC/AHC French enclaves in England 1500AD

For hundreds of years the English had enclaves in France such as Gascony Normandy and during the 100 years war Paris.

Your challenge should you choose to accept it is to have part of England belong to France preferably a whole county and long lasting.

Bonus if England remains relatively strong and is capable of waging war against France.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
The English kept Calais until the reign of Bloody Mary. I suppose something similar could have happened had the French gotten over the Channel at some point during the Hundred Years War. Maybe Plymouth?
 
The English kept Calais until the reign of Bloody Mary. I suppose something similar could have happened had the French gotten over the Channel at some point during the Hundred Years War. Maybe Plymouth?


Perhaps in the aftermath of the French wiping out the entire English kingdom of France ( what was left of it ) in 12 months?

I've read that the South was put on alert for fear of an invasion. But Plymouth might be to important for the English to allow to fall without losing so badly that a single city wouldnt satisfy the French.
 
For hundreds of years the English had enclaves in France such as Gascony Normandy and during the 100 years war Paris.

Your challenge should you choose to accept it is to have part of England belong to France preferably a whole county and long lasting.

Bonus if England remains relatively strong and is capable of waging war against France.

I think you mixed there actual enclaves, feudal demesnes and occupation zone.

Let's focus on actual enclaves : The main issue is that it would require a strong fleet to maintain their presence there (it's how England managed to maintain its presence in the Pale of Calais after all).

So you'll need a POD for keeping the french medieval marine strong enough : a french victory at the Battle of L'Ecluse would be helping.

Now, I really doubt France would be able to have more than raiding bases, but...the most likely part to be kept long enough is the Isle of Wight if fortified quickly and enough, at least up to the 1500.
 
The reason why the English had interests in France but not vice vera was that they acquired feudal demesnes. Any enclaves come from these or the results of wars.

There is no reason though why the French king could not have acquired one. After all until 1237 the King of Scotland was the Earl of Huntingdon. We would then have the interesting situation of two medieval monarchs swearing fealty each other for land holding in other's kingdom.

The advantage of the French king not having demesnes or enclaves in England was that on the feudal scale he could claim superiority over his English counterpart because he was the other's overlord. In addition, the costs of maintianing such holdings often outweighed their economic returns.

The points made on the French fleet are important. They had three fronts to fight on east against the HRE, south against the Cathars and Spanish and north against the English. In contrast the English only had two, north against the Scots and south against the French. In addition much trade was with the continent. It is that not surprising that although their kingdom was poorer the English had more ships. A French enclave at Cowes or Hastings would thus be less sustainable per se than Calais.
 
Could we find some way to have Brittany either own or have feudal overlordship of Cornwall rather than the British crown doing so? That way wen Brittany comes into personal union with the French crown in 1491 thanks to Charles VIII invading and forcing Anne to marry him he also picks up the rights to Cornwall as well. Now they wouldn't get to hold them for long as in the next fifty to a hundred years or so during one of the regular wars it would be seized but for the purposes of the thread it works.
 
Could we find some way to have Brittany either own or have feudal overlordship of Cornwall rather than the British crown doing so? That way wen Brittany comes into personal union with the French crown in 1491 thanks to Charles VIII invading and forcing Anne to marry him he also picks up the rights to Cornwall as well. Now they wouldn't get to hold them for long as in the next fifty to a hundred years or so during one of the regular wars it would be seized but for the purposes of the thread it works.

There is the claim of Brittany's dukes to the earldom of Richmond, but I think that had lapsed by that point (1491) - if it hadn't, that would be easy.

No need for anything Cornwall-ward.
 
There is the claim of Brittany's dukes to the earldom of Richmond, but I think that had lapsed by that point (1491) - if it hadn't, that would be easy.
Considering that Henry VII had been using that title himself before he managed to seize the throne, I can't really see him recognising the last Breton duke as holding it: Not without some serious quid-pro-quo such as the marriage of Anne of Brittany (the duke's only heir) to somebody of his own choice, anyway...


And if we go for another location instead then there's also the economics to consider: English-held Calais had an important advantage that a French-held town (or even Isle) somewhere on England's south coast would have lacked, namely that it was the main port for the arrival of English wool & woolen cloth on the continent for processing in Flanders.
 
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