One thing I often hear here is that World War 1 was inevitable with the upscaling of german military build-up, the alliance system and everything going around the balkans.
Another is that Hitler and his gang would have easily been butterflied away from rising to power if any change were to occur in the european politics at the start of the 20th century while mainstream media just take it as if his regime was inevitable.

So here's a idea: could through some diplomacy and a few divergences(like with avoiding the murder of the Archduke) the war be delayed by a few decades? And if so, could a extremist group such as the nazis be elected, perhaps with Adolf as chancellor? I mean even without the humiliation of the war and the "stab on the back" myth nationalism and militarism would still be on the raise and if the 20s crisis wasnt butterflied away you still have the economic climate that led to fascist regimes gaining proeminence.

To be clear, this is not a Germany wins WWI scenario nor if the war hadnt happened, as in both cases Hitler is most likely indeed butterflied away, just if it happened later, around the time of OTL WWII.

I'm asking this because I've always wondered if the World Wars could be made somehow into a single conflict, so that's the scenario!
(Also because Imperial Germany and national socialism are often treated as water and oil, and I'm curious if they can both burn~)
 

Riain

Banned
In 1914 the Kaiser initiated a process to change the voting franchise in Prussia, the biggest and by far the most important state in Imperial Germany but this was lost in the maelstrom of war only to resurface at Easter 1917. This constitutes a considerable political liberalization and the example would likely followed by other states with restrictive franchise.

There is no reason why an increasingly wealthy country which is getting more inclusive political representation would turn into genocidal manics.
 
I don't see how it could've fallen prey to the fascist tendencies it did in OTL, other than perhaps the defence budget creating such a strain on the economy that it simply falls apart. Even if it did, I doubt it'd be as bad as it was in OTL when it relied on American loans.
In regards to Hitler, if he never participated in World War I, there could still be a chance of him perhaps participating in far-right circles, but Hitler's rise in the midst of the Wall Street Crash was primarily prompted by the fact that even when the Weimar Republic was enjoying the 'Roaring Twenties', he was telling everyone that sooner or later, the German economy was going to collapse
Could perhaps a collapse on the budget due to the militarism trying to match up Britain & France result in Germany seeking those loans? I think a alt Wall Street crash could do the job still if the already strained german economy had to deal with that on top of a possible british blockade
hy country which is getting more inclusive political representation would turn into genocidal manics
I think it's very possible if things suddenly started going wrong because it's way easy for those genocidal maniacs to blame the inclusiveness of said wealthy society for it's troubles
If you're looking for a fascist state to kick off your hybrid of the World Wars, I would look more towards Japan, not Germany, since one could say Japan was already sliding into fascist militarism even before World War I.
In 1914 the Kaiser initiated a process to change the voting franchise in Prussia, the biggest and by far the most important state in Imperial Germany but this was lost in the maelstrom of war only to resurface at Easter 1917. This constitutes a considerable political liberalization and the example would likely followed by other states with restrictive franchise.
All good points
 
Kaiser POD?
Could perhaps a collapse on the budget due to the militarism trying to match up Britain & France result in Germany seeking those loans? I think a alt Wall Street crash could do the job still if the already strained german economy had to deal with that on top of a possible british blockade

If Germany had any other Kaiser, I would say there was a good chance they'd accept American financial assistance, but Germany would've been stuck with Wilhelm II for at least 27 more years in this timeline. He was emotionally immature and he was obsessed with maintaining Germany's greatness in the world.

I feel like he would sack any Chancellor who would dare to suggest allowing foreigners to have control over Germany's economy, especially in a timeline where Germany still maintains it's colonial possessions, because he would see it as a insult to both his personal honour and Germany's reputation. Of course, sacking a Chancellor would probably cause a ruckus in the Reichstag.
 
I dunno tbh but Hindenburg did and after firing Bismarck the Kaisers didnt come off as very smart in my book

It took an extremely precise chain of events to make the Nazi Party rise to prominence in the first place. Its extremely unlikely Hitler and his buddies would be remotely as successful in a surviving German Empire. Without those events, Hitler is just some crazy low class Austrian painter ranting about jews.
 

Deleted member 147978

It's absolutely unlikely that Imperial Germany would go National Socialist if the old conservative Prussian order is still kicking around and the Great War delayed / butterflied.

Adolf would've been a run-of-the-mill citizen in the Kaiserreich with contemporary anti-Jewish sentiment at the time.
 

Garrison

Donor
If the Kaiser survives that implies WWI went much better for the Germans, so no stabbed in the back myth, no reparations, no occupation of the Rhineland. Under those circumstances there's no more reason to expect Germany to adopt Nazi ideology any more than Britain or the USA would,
 
If the Kaiser survives that implies WWI went much better for the Germans,
The whole point is that there wasnt a WWI till decades later
Without those events, Hitler is just some crazy low class Austrian painter ranting about jews.
I mean I did mention other events that did happen like the Wall Street crash and the rising nationalism as Germany prepares for war, but sure
 

Garrison

Donor
The whole point is that there wasnt a WWI till decades later

I mean I did mention other events that did happen like the Wall Street crash and the rising nationalism as Germany prepares for war, but sure
But it was the outcome of WWI plus the Great Depression that led to the Nazi's having the opportunity to come to power. For that matter with no WWI and no simmering resentment over the outcome I find it unlikely that Mein Kampf even gets written, or at least not in a form we would recognize. You cannot make a massive change to the history of the early 20th century and expect the circumstances that led to the rise of Hitler and Nazism still coming together. Anti-Semitism and dreams of Germany expanding east were hardly unique to Hitler, but no one else is likely to put them together in the virulent form Hitler did.
 

Garrison

Donor
I see, could a analogue to him rise still though?
Using this for reference:
And using it wrongly. There was a world of difference between other German nationalists and Hitler, which was the point of the whole comment of which you picked out one small part. Again remove WWI from the equation and any party akin to the Nazi's remains on the fringes of German politics. A Germany with the influence of the Kaiser and the military almost certainly rataining considerably influence and power isn't going to feel the need to find what was supposed to be a figurehead in the shape of Hitler. Remember part of the reason he came to power was that the conservative elements in the country wanted to co-opt the Nazis, why would they need to do so when they still have such control over the levers of power? You asked a question in the title of the thread and so far the consensus seems to be the answer is 'no'.
 

Garrison

Donor
I was asking, not stating
So far you're only saying I'm wrong and that the majority agrees with you rather than discussing it politely
While I agree with most of your points I'm done talking to you
I feel I've explained in quite a bit of detail why I think your premise is unlikely as have others for that matter in arriving at that consensus, I'm sorry if you feel its come across as rude.
 
I feel I've explained in quite a bit of detail why I think your premise is unlikely as have others for that matter in arriving at that consensus, I'm sorry if you feel its come across as rude.
That's fine
I'm aware it's unlikely, I was just trying to explore if there's any way the scenario could be made possible like with Nathan's comment
Not trying to be rude either, just not wanting to let my temper get the better of me because you were polite after all
 
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