PC/AHC: Confederate seccession as a long-planned conspiracy/A more prepared South.

We all know how the slaveholder's rebellion went. The fire-eaters just went in guns blazing to war, carelessly expecting to throttle the vastly superior Union and got smacked around as a result. The successes of the Virginia Campaign were nothing compared to the crushing defeats they got on the Western front. And they were never truly a chance for General Sherman to begin with.

Thus, I beg the question, how possible could it be for Southern Secession to have been planned in advance for years, even decades? To have secret meetings by influential members of the Deep South, to have at least one man or clique of men to have been prepared to tacle the Union and stockpiling weapons, recruiting men, and making plans and counter-plans in advance, and also ensuring they cleverly use their initial advantage of the "Slave power" to prepare for any inevitable altercations with the North, abusng the First and Second ammendments to their advantage?

All coments are welcome.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
The problem with this is that it requires two things:

We all know how the slaveholder's rebellion went. The fire-eaters just went in guns blazing to war, carelessly expecting to throttle the vastly superior Union and got smacked around as a result. The successes of the Virginia Campaign were nothing compared to the crushing defeats they got on the Western front. And they were never truly a chance for General Sherman to begin with.

Thus, I beg the question, how possible could it be for Southern Secession to have been planned in advance for years, even decades? To have secret meetings by influential members of the Deep South, to have at least one man or clique of men to have been prepared to tacle the Union and stockpiling weapons, recruiting men, and making plans and counter-plans in advance, and also ensuring they cleverly use their initial advantage of the "Slave power" to prepare for any inevitable altercations with the North, abusng the First and Second ammendments to their advantage?

All coments are welcome.

The problem with this is that it requires two things:

1) People who essentially dominated the national government and political agenda for most of the six decades between 1790 and 1850 to somehow even want to consider giving that up (the sectional crisis really only broke out in the decade before the war); and
2) People who were defined by their society as being utterly convinced (at least among themselves) they were the masters of all they could survey, the finest chivalrous gentlemen, and worth ten times their number of their political opponents, as somehow being conspirators, skulking in the shadows.

Best,
 
The problem with this is that it requires two things:

1) People who essentially dominated the national government and political agenda for most of the six decades between 1790 and 1850 to somehow even want to consider giving that up (the sectional crisis really only broke out in the decade before the war); and
2) People who were defined by their society as being utterly convinced (at least among themselves) they were the masters of all they could survey, the finest chivalrous gentlemen, and worth ten times their number of their political opponents, as somehow being conspirators, skulking in the shadows.

Best,
Well... I never specified a POD, didn't I? We could have, say, a Union that gains more states (either from Canada or Mexico, but preferably the former; they don't even have to be that many, just enough to decisively shift the balance in favor of the North) earlier on (1812 to 1838 for a timeframe reference, or even as far back as the Revolution itself, with maybe Nova Scotia and/or, less likely, Quebec), upsetting the Slavocrats earlier on (for ecxample, I'm thinking of a sectional crisis starting as early as the 1830's and carrying through the 40's and 50's, with the war against Mexico being an even bigger catalyst than IOTL).

Another factor I'm counting on is wether or not the US achieves such a crushing defeat in the war against Mexico. It seems to me that the less territory they hack from Mexico, the angrier the Southrons are gonna be, so again, more catalyst to seceede.

On the second point, I agree. The only way to work given the cultural circumstances is for this conspiracy to only exist between a very small group of (evilly) insightful and cleverly devious individuals who simply wait until the sectional crisis reaches critical point to enact their plan, taking advantage of the rest of the Southern Elite to put their plan into motion.

Again, I'm open to putting the POD anywhere in the XIX Century.
 
Isn't this the plot of 'Legend of Zorro' where some conspiracy group called "Orbis Unum' (sp?) plan to balkanize the US, including helping the Confederates by supplying them with nitro-glycerin (from soap!) :D
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Sure, but the farther back one goes, the greater the

Well... I never specified a POD, didn't I? We could have, say, a Union that gains more states (either from Canada or Mexico, but preferably the former; they don't even have to be that many, just enough to decisively shift the balance in favor of the North) earlier on (1812 to 1838 for a timeframe reference, or even as far back as the Revolution itself, with maybe Nova Scotia and/or, less likely, Quebec), upsetting the Slavocrats earlier on (for ecxample, I'm thinking of a sectional crisis starting as early as the 1830's and carrying through the 40's and 50's, with the war against Mexico being an even bigger catalyst than IOTL).

Another factor I'm counting on is wether or not the US achieves such a crushing defeat in the war against Mexico. It seems to me that the less territory they hack from Mexico, the angrier the Southrons are gonna be, so again, more catalyst to seceede.

On the second point, I agree. The only way to work given the cultural circumstances is for this conspiracy to only exist between a very small group of (evilly) insightful and cleverly devious individuals who simply wait until the sectional crisis reaches critical point to enact their plan, taking advantage of the rest of the Southern Elite to put their plan into motion.

Again, I'm open to putting the POD anywhere in the XIX Century.

Sure, but the farther back one goes, the greater the potential ripples...

Best,
 
To have secret meetings by influential members of the Deep South, to have at least one man or clique of men to have been prepared to tacle the Union and stockpiling weapons, recruiting men, and making plans and counter-plans in advance, and also ensuring they cleverly use their initial advantage of the "Slave power" to prepare for any inevitable altercations with the North, abusng the First and Second ammendments to their advantage?


The problem with this is that the Southern plantation culture and even the legality of slavery was never a "fringe" ideology in the US until after the Civil War. Why would members of the Southern Plantation class see the need to "skulk" in the shadows planning a rebellion when the entire nation and its Constitution clearly supported the their right to have that slavocratic economic system. They were part of the American mainstream. Only after the Civil War did the culture of slavery become "an extreme, fringe, bad" thing, and that was because the Southern Confederacy lost the war.

Also, how do you "abuse" the 1st and 2nd Amendments?
 
the entire nation and its Constitution clearly supported the their right to have that slavocratic economic system.
With two exceptions the slave trade could be banned after 1808 and slaves are 3/5th of a person.

Perhaps any conspiracy starts with those. Southern politicians try getting the importation ban removed and slaves counted as full people for census purposes.

Failing would be the first signs they're losing power, and if it works their power's just cemented more.
 
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