PC/AHC: Christianized Aztec Empire?

I recently had a thought while I was at work, and while I at least am not sure the best, I figured I'd share it here by doing a PC and AHC.


The idea was to have the Aztec Empire to become Christianized, possibly in a vein similar to how the Celts of Ireland were converted with some of their pagan roots being integrated into the new faith. Going along with this was the thought that, following such a conversion, the Aztecs possibly manage to maintain independence and indeed their empire.


Anyone know whether such a thing is plausible, and if they do, would they take up the challenge of coming up with the scenario for such?
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Part of the problem here is that the religions of the Triple Alliance were actually quite sophisticated - as theologically complex as the religions of Europe at the time. As such, it's more equivalent to converting the Ottoman Empire to Christianity than converting a relatively simple or non-structured tribal cult.
There's a recorded meeting between Triple Alliance theologians and Christian ones, and it's interesting stuff - the Christian priests want to make this a simple conversion, but the Triple Alliance delegation clearly view themselves as defeated equals rather than primitives.
 
Part of the problem here is that the religions of the Triple Alliance were actually quite sophisticated - as theologically complex as the religions of Europe at the time. As such, it's more equivalent to converting the Ottoman Empire to Christianity than converting a relatively simple or non-structured tribal cult.
There's a recorded meeting between Triple Alliance theologians and Christian ones, and it's interesting stuff - the Christian priests want to make this a simple conversion, but the Triple Alliance delegation clearly view themselves as defeated equals rather than primitives.

Could you please provide a source for that? It sounds like a fantastic read!

Edit: just looked over that and it sounded sarcastic. I am seriously interested in that as I love Aztec mythology.
 
Part of the problem here is that the religions of the Triple Alliance were actually quite sophisticated - as theologically complex as the religions of Europe at the time. As such, it's more equivalent to converting the Ottoman Empire to Christianity than converting a relatively simple or non-structured tribal cult.
There's a recorded meeting between Triple Alliance theologians and Christian ones, and it's interesting stuff - the Christian priests want to make this a simple conversion, but the Triple Alliance delegation clearly view themselves as defeated equals rather than primitives.

I would also love to see such a source for said meeting, as well as additional material regarding Aztec religion in general.
 
Could you please provide a source for that? It sounds like a fantastic read!

Edit: just looked over that and it sounded sarcastic. I am seriously interested in that as I love Aztec mythology.

1491 by Charles C. Mann. An excellent book, completely reexamines the way people in the Americas lived before Columbus. I'm actually rereading it right now.
 
Hehehe.

I had fun with this in one of my first TLs.

Tenochtitlan
"Madre de Dios...Madre de Dios....Oh Christ be with me..." Geronimo de Aguilar muttered to himself in his native tounge as he was lead up the steps of the great stepped pyramid of these...these Aztecs! The bearded fransiscan priest's bare feet were bleeding profusly, his shoes taken off at the foot of the pyramid. If it were not for the dozens of armed Aztec warriors and the crowd of Aztec nobles and commoners, Geronimo would have done his best to escape from the situation. He had lived with the Maya peoples and learned their language, infact he had been questioned for the last few days constantly by warriors and officials over the nature of his religion-they even stole his bible!

In what he himself was calling "La Noche Triesta" Geronimo had attempted to flee with the rest of the expedition but he had been knocked out from behind, having woken up in a cell of other captives of the Aztecs, but not long afterward he had been singled out and seperated from the rest of the survivors! God be with them! He thought now that he would no doubt meet the defiled corpses of his fellow Spaindards at the top of this pyramid.

Though on entering the city a few weeks hence, Geronimo if he recalled correctly, this pyramid-altar to the pagan gods had been empty of any kind of structure on the top. He had been about to ask one of the guards pushing him up the stone stairs when he and the crowd seemed to reach the summit, he felt a hand grab his hair and fiercly jerk his head upward and what he saw threatened to send his mind into insanity.

Their wasn't much, no large structure housing a altar, enfact the stone altars where these savages normally did their grusome sacrifices was absent. Instead their were four crosses.

Four Crosses with people nailed to them with spikes of wood, crucified! Geronimo's eyes bulged in his skull as he looked on, the arrangement of the crosses were arranged with one cross on a small podium in the back and above the others slightly-a old native man his skin caked in a white substance looked on at Geronimo. Below and to the front of him was a Spanidard, a young conquistador who looked like he might be dead, and ontop of his head he wore a crown of thorns..... Biting his lips Geronimo looked to his left and right, on his left their was a old woman a bird on a cord wrapped around her neck and to the right was a younger woman who wore...who wore a shawl over her head like he had seen many times in paintings and statues of the Virgin Mary!!!!!

Geronimo felt sick as he fell to his knees, tears streaming down his face, and this was when he noticed arrayed around the bodies of these crucified people were bowels where their blood was slowly pooling into, and to the side sat a small cooking fire.....

"Oh God....Oh God....."

His words were interupted by the speaking of another Aztec who stood arms raised to the assmebled crowd below him "People of Mexica! The foreigners from the east are defeated! The might and blood of the people of Huitzilopochtli have triumphed over these men who would seek to steal our wealth and defile our people!" he stops as a booming shout of cheers erupt around him, the man who Geronimo now notices is clutching his Bible tightly to his breast, "As right of our conquest! We have this day stolen the gods of the people of the east! Their mighty strength will now serve us! In their honor and to win them over the people of Tenochtitlan shall every First Tecpatl and Seventh Cuetzpalin give a dedication of devourering of the sacred flesh of the Son and drinking of his blood. So that the power of their divinity will give the Mexica PROSPERITY and VICTORY!!"

Geronimo de Aguilar's weeping cries of blasphemy was lost in the cheers echoing throughout Tenochtitlan.....

aztec4_sacrifice.jpg
 
Hehehe.

I had fun with this in one of my first TLs.

Well, such Christianization is pretty much guaranteed to be condemned as heretical, even un-Christian. Won't do jack beyond allowing the Spanish to obtain approval from the Pope for a Crusade. :D
 
The Christianization process was a lot slower than it's generally implied. For instance there was the priests' original goal to preserve as much of the culture as they could, but to just convert them. In the early years too, depictions of the 'gods' (which isn't really the most accurate word to describe the Mesoamerican divine beings, especially with connotations that word carries in English and the western worldview) accompanied images of the saints. There were open air masses that resembled the pre-conquest public ceremonies, dancing practices, and altered prayers.

Even at the conclusion of the fall of Tenochtitlan, Cortes did not want to divide the empire into encomiendas as they had done in the Caribbean. He wanted to treat the Triple Alliance more like a vanquished European kingdom. However many of his officers felt their men would mutiny if they weren't allowed to loot and take slaves, especially given their entire expedition was treason in the first place.
 
The Christianization process was a lot slower than it's generally implied. For instance there was the priests' original goal to preserve as much of the culture as they could, but to just convert them. In the early years too, depictions of the 'gods' (which isn't really the most accurate word to describe the Mesoamerican divine beings, especially with connotations that word carries in English and the western worldview) accompanied images of the saints. There were open air masses that resembled the pre-conquest public ceremonies, dancing practices, and altered prayers.

Indeed on the gods part, many of the Gods in Mesoamerica actually had multiple forms and associations, being in some cases multiple gods at once. I think it shares this somewhat with Hinduism to an extent, if I am remembering correctly.

Even at the conclusion of the fall of Tenochtitlan, Cortes did not want to divide the empire into encomiendas as they had done in the Caribbean. He wanted to treat the Triple Alliance more like a vanquished European kingdom. However many of his officers felt their men would mutiny if they weren't allowed to loot and take slaves, especially given their entire expedition was treason in the first place.

This has me wondering, could Cortes have somehow found a way to make himself the ruler of the Aztec Triple Alliance?
 
A long series of PoDs can do this

Vinland is semi successful and the settlements eventually blend into the native culture

The Vikings bring smallpox and as trade makes it way slowly down to Mexico, it kills many natives

The natives that survive are imbued with immunity and posses iron weapons, they repulse the colonisers and christinize over timr
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Could you please provide a source for that? It sounds like a fantastic read!

Edit: just looked over that and it sounded sarcastic. I am seriously interested in that as I love Aztec mythology.

I ran into it in 1493 by Charles C. Mann (basically a book about the contact between old world and new; that is, the columbian interchange). That or 1491. Both absolutely fantastic books and I can well recommend them - the kind of interlinks 1493 talks about astonish me, whereas 1491 really brings pre-contact America to life.

The Triple Alliance view of the soul was a lot like modern atheism in a way, as I understand it - they did not believe in an afterlife, nor a before-life. Existence was like a bird going from the cold night, through a building full of warmth and life, and then back out into the cold night.

...sadly I don't have the book with me, so I can't give a source right now.

edit: Ah, someone got there first. Derp. Well, there you go!
 
Indeed on the gods part, many of the Gods in Mesoamerica actually had multiple forms and associations, being in some cases multiple gods at once. I think it shares this somewhat with Hinduism to an extent, if I am remembering correctly.

Yep. It is a very pantheistic and animist world view. Also many of the beings of the Teotl (the spiritual essence of the world), the teteotl are also considered apart of the concepts and/or natural forces they were responsible for. For instance when it rained, it was not just Tlaloc causing that, but the rain was also literally viewed as Tlaloc. My people, the Mixtecs, were even more prone to view them as forces of nature rather than humanistic entities. The Kami of Japan might be more of an appropriate comparison too.


This has me wondering, could Cortes have somehow found a way to make himself the ruler of the Aztec Triple Alliance?

Cortes was actually quite loyal to his emperor. A lot of the accusations that he meant to form his own kingdom came from his opponents. So this wouldn't spring whole cloth from his own ambitions. It would probably take Charles V to belief Cortes's opponents for Cortes to go down that road (which isn't impossible by any means).

The Triple Alliance view of the soul was a lot like modern atheism in a way, as I understand it - they did not believe in an afterlife, nor a before-life. Existence was like a bird going from the cold night, through a building full of warmth and life, and then back out into the cold night.

Actually the common conception of the soul, particularly with the Nahua, was living beings had three souls. And they very much had an afterlife, multiple in fact depending on how you died. It's just that your ancestors can come back to visit, such as on Dios de los Muertos, and when you ivoke them by telling stories. That's why our plays, stories, and even the writings carry deeply spiritual connotations and traditionally carry a lot of ritual with them because you are making them 'live' again.

Though you are right about the view of death, as being seen as one stage of existence that we transition through.
 
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Hehehe.

I had fun with this in one of my first TLs.

That's actually pretty interesting. I'd love to see more of this.

The Triple Alliance view of the soul was a lot like modern atheism in a way, as I understand it - they did not believe in an afterlife, nor a before-life. Existence was like a bird going from the cold night, through a building full of warmth and life, and then back out into the cold night.

...sadly I don't have the book with me, so I can't give a source right now.

edit: Ah, someone got there first. Derp. Well, there you go!

I was actually about to counter this, but Othyrsyde beat me to it. All of Mesoamerica in fact to my knowledge believed in an afterlife, there were simply some variances amongst what precisely happened afterwards. There were some scholars who believed the Mayan afterlife (at least the heaven) was only for Mayan kings and nobility, but most seem to think such a faith wouldn't last long.

Yep. It is a very pantheistic and animist world view. Also many of the beings of the Teotl (the spiritual essence of the world), the teteotl are also considered apart of the concepts and/or natural forces they were responsible for. For instance when it rained, it was not just Tlaloc causing that, but the rain was also literally viewed as Tlaloc. My people, the Mixtecs, were even more prone to view them as forces of nature rather than humanistic entities. The Kami of Japan might be more of an appropriate comparison too.

Also comparing it to Celtic Paganism, where the spirits and gods embodied literal physical things such as streams, trees, fields and such. I think the Tengri faith of the Mongolian and Asian Steppe peoples had similar viewpoints.

Cortes was actually quite loyal to his emperor. A lot of the accusations that he meant to form his own kingdom came from his opponents. So this wouldn't spring whole cloth from his own ambitions. It would probably take Charles V to belief Cortes's opponents for Cortes to go down that road (which isn't impossible by any means).

So if Charles V accepts the accusations and thus tries to arrest Cortes/get rid of him, Cortes might indeed put himself on the path to becoming the ruler of the Aztec Triple Alliance... wonder how that might have gone in time. Might have interesting consequences.


Actually the common conception of the soul, particularly with the Nahua, was living beings had three souls. And they very much had an afterlife, multiple in fact depending on how you died. It's just that your ancestors can come back to visit, such as on Dios de los Muertos, and when you ivoke them by telling stories. That's why our plays, stories, and even the writings carry deeply spiritual connotations and traditionally carry a lot of ritual with them because you are making them 'live' again.

Though you are right about the view of death, as being seen as one stage of existence that we transition through.

Regarding death, I believe that part of it was a cyclical view, at least from what I'm reading. I don't know if the Aztec necessarily believed in Reincarnation, though there seemed to be hints of such.

I do know that for Spirits sent to... Mictland I think it was called, the Aztec hell, that you had to make your way past a great many trials, and that if you managed not to die you could find your way up to one of the thirteen heavens.
 
Can Cortes can make the Triple Alliance to a puppet principality with him as duke of Mexica/ Infante de Mexico as a vassal to Charles V?
 
Assuming that Cortes fails there would still be significant opportunities for Christianity to take root. First of all there are the Aztec vassals. The Aztec religion involved a sort of divine destiny, in which the Aztecs had the sacred duty of sacrificing thousands in order to give the Sun the strength to overcome the Moon and stars, keeping the world alive. For people in the vassal states (who often had to provide the sacrifices) the idea that you don't need to be sacrificed to save the world, that in fact someone had sacrificed themselves to save you, would be appealing. Poorer people would also like the message of equality.

In the short term of course this does jack-squat. In fact, because they explicitly reject sacrifice Aztec and vassal state Christians would be persecuted. But, like in Rome, the fact that they went to their deaths with dignity would gain converts. This probably wouldn't become the majority religion, but a large number of Aztecs would probably convert.

The smallpox epidemic would be another opportunity. Smallpox not only killed many millions, it tore apart Mesoamerican society. In this environment it isn't inconceivable that many would feel that the gods abandoned them, and turn to the god of the foreigners, who seemed immune to the disease. Ultimately a syncretic religion would emerge, and might dominate Aztec culture.
 
Assuming that Cortes fails there would still be significant opportunities for Christianity to take root. First of all there are the Aztec vassals. The Aztec religion involved a sort of divine destiny, in which the Aztecs had the sacred duty of sacrificing thousands in order to give the Sun the strength to overcome the Moon and stars, keeping the world alive. For people in the vassal states (who often had to provide the sacrifices) the idea that you don't need to be sacrificed to save the world, that in fact someone had sacrificed themselves to save you, would be appealing. Poorer people would also like the message of equality.

There is actually a myth involving a Priest King of a Toltec City known as... if I'm remembering it correctly, Tollpan, with said Priest King being an incarnation of the God Quetzalcoatl. He was considered such a great king because he stopped Human sacrifice, saying that the gods did not need such (though auto sacrifice and sacrificing animals was still acceptable). The reforms also had some measure of a more peacefull and equality based viewpoint.

Unfortunately, it left said city (in one myth or tale I believe) vulnerable to warlike neighbors nearby. :(


The smallpox epidemic would be another opportunity. Smallpox not only killed many millions, it tore apart Mesoamerican society. In this environment it isn't inconceivable that many would feel that the gods abandoned them, and turn to the god of the foreigners, who seemed immune to the disease. Ultimately a syncretic religion would emerge, and might dominate Aztec culture.

This is an interesting thought. I wonder what said religion would look like exactly.
 
This is an interesting thought. I wonder what said religion would look like exactly.

I think this religion would focus on Jesus. In this mythology he would be the son of Huitzilpochtli, the sun and war god, and a virgin woman. During Jesus' life there is a lack of sacrifices, so the people of Earth turn to Jesus and another minor deity named Barabbas, asking one of them to sacrifice themselves. Jesus accepts this and is crucified. Through his sacrifice he give the Sun enough strength to rise every day forever. Thus he is a savior, saving the world from famine and perpetual darkness. This means that no sacrifices are needed.
 
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