PC/AHC: a large Byzantine Empire with over one-third of its subjects Muslims in 1500

[TimTurner]

Is it possible? POD can be as early as befits the scenario.
Also, by "large" I mean at least roughly an area equivalent in land area to all of Turkey, Bulgaria, and Greece combined as they exist in the present day.
Bonus points if a) if you can get the Muslim % up to a near-majority, b) if you can get it even larger than specified above, and/or c) the sacking of Constantinople in 1204 still occurs.

 

[The Virginia Unionist]

I think Age of Miracles fits this bill.

 

[Emperor Gustavus Adolphus]

If one third of its population are Muslims, look what happened in Iberia.

 

[Talus I of Dixie]

Well, you always can put up a muslim (late) byzantine empire established by muslim greeks , the things is, how? I was thinking a time ago about what if one of the coastal turkish beyliks was takeover by a muslim greek not-went-turk dynasty during the mid-14th century, as nearly all of the beyliks there were in some way or another prone to instability, and they were the only ones with a considerable (arguably majority) greek population, but i don't know how plausible it can be at all, although in this case i considered the Aydınids to be the best choice to install a greek dynasty and from there smash the ottomans + other beyliks early on and thus gaining access to Constantinople (and somehow capturing it), with that you have effectively an muslim byzantine empire (and probably would reach the 1/3 muslim population pretty quickly) with the legitimacy of an eastern roman empire (IOTL technically the ottomans were a muslim eastern roman empire, but really no one thought that they were, so they don't have the legitimacy of an proper eastern roman empire).

Again, i don't know how plausible (or, implausible) that is, i just had the idea a time ago and researched some things seeing if it would be viable (accordingly to my timid research it would be somewhat viable, but again, i think i must research some more if i would enter deeper on this) and actually thought that would be a great idea for a TL, but as i have two timelines to write i wouldn't write it for now.

 

[AltoRegnant]

Um... Bulgaria wank or Europe, in an effort to undermine the legacy of the ERE, accepts the Ottos as a Byzantine empire? It's what Mehmed claimed, and the Patriarch legitimized it

 

[Mightyboosh5]

If one third of its population are Muslims, look what happened in Iberia.

I don't know, what did happen in iberia? like are you talking about the expulsion of the moriscos? its one thing to expel a large population when north africa is separated by a sea but trying to expel the third of your population who presumably live on the borderlands with muslims states who could exploit the chaos/use it as a chance to intervene seems like it would be stupid

 

[StrikeEcho]

I mean the "easiest" way would be the Byzantines making a resurgence circa.1200s or so and conquering the levant or something.

 

[Emperor Gustavus Adolphus]

I don't know, what did happen in iberia? like are you talking about the expulsion of the moriscos? its one thing to expel a large population when north africa is separated by a sea but trying to expel the third of your population who presumably live on the borderlands with muslims states who could exploit the chaos/use it as a chance to intervene seems like it would be stupid

Than expulsion, in this case, they might be systematically forced to convert to the Byzantine Church, generation by generation.

 

[Remitonov]

No Manzikert or ERE victory at Manzikert is a good start. At the latest, no Angeloi dynasty and Fourth Crusade escapades. The former is said to have kickstarted the terminal decline of the ERE, denying it the valuable Anatolian hinterland for taxes and manpower. And the latter rapidly sped up its destruction, and probably would have ended the ERE then and there had the Nicaean Empire not recovered enough to reclaim the remnants enough to reform it, if only by another century and a half.

 

[Guardonion]

Hmm... How about a Byzantine Resurgence after the Ottomans get smashed by Tamerlane? (Of course, you would have to give the Rhomans a lot of lucky breaks for them to grasp the opportunity.) It would be practically impossible to exile all the Turks there without ending up with a huge rebellion in their hands, and I think Byzantium at that point would be desperate enough to want to avoid that at all costs and take a softer approach to the Turks.

 

[Silver01]

Hmm... How about a Byzantine Resurgence after the Ottomans get smashed by Tamerlane? (Of course, you would have to give the Rhomans a lot of lucky breaks for them to grasp the opportunity.) It would be practically impossible to exile all the Turks there without ending up with a huge rebellion in their hands, and I think Byzantium at that point would be desperate enough to want to avoid that at all costs and take a softer approach to the Turks.

the balkan half would have to collapse as well

 

[Guardonion]

the balkan half would have to collapse as well

Like I said, a lot of lucky breaks.

 

[Remitonov]

Hmm... How about a Byzantine Resurgence after the Ottomans get smashed by Tamerlane? (Of course, you would have to give the Rhomans a lot of lucky breaks for them to grasp the opportunity.) It would be practically impossible to exile all the Turks there without ending up with a huge rebellion in their hands, and I think Byzantium at that point would be desperate enough to want to avoid that at all costs and take a softer approach to the Turks.

The Ottoman Interregnum? Maybe? But by that point, the Byzantines have been reduced to a rump state. Nothing barring Belisarius reincarnated could possibly save it now, and even then, it's likely going to remain as either a tribute of the Timurids or tied down by Papal demands for Catholic supremacy over Christendom. Muscovy may be able to assist, but it's both really far, not really strong enough to stave off Catholic and Muslim ambitions, and for all intents and purposes, would have wanted to absorb the ERE itself to claim legitimacy in the Orthodox world.

 

[ImperialxWarlord]

Hmm... How about a Byzantine Resurgence after the Ottomans get smashed by Tamerlane? (Of course, you would have to give the Rhomans a lot of lucky breaks for them to grasp the opportunity.) It would be practically impossible to exile all the Turks there without ending up with a huge rebellion in their hands, and I think Byzantium at that point would be desperate enough to want to avoid that at all costs and take a softer approach to the Turks.

It would require some ASB level luck for that to happen. At that point the “empire” was made up of Constantinople, some islands, and morea. And even then Anatolia isn’t coming back under the empire anytime soon. By that point the Turkish hold over Anatolia was too strong for the empire to take it.

If you want a significant muslim minority then here’s a way it could happen: Micheal VII has more success in retaking Greece, allowing him to start retaking Anatolia. If the battles of prinizta and settepozi are major victories for Michael and charles either dies or doesn’t win at Benevento then he would certainly have retaken Greece and been able to focus on reconquering Anatolia. Given the fractured nature of the Turks at the time he very well could have retaken quite a bit of Anatolia before dying.

 

[Guardonion]

It would require some ASB level luck for that to happen. At that point the “empire” was made up of Constantinople, some islands, and morea. And even then Anatolia isn’t coming back under the empire anytime soon. By that point the Turkish hold over Anatolia was too strong for the empire to take it.

If you want a significant muslim minority then here’s a way it could happen: Micheal VII has more success in retaking Greece, allowing him to start retaking Anatolia. If the battles of prinizta and settepozi are major victories for Michael and charles either dies or doesn’t win at Benevento then he would certainly have retaken Greece and been able to focus on reconquering Anatolia. Given the fractured nature of the Turks at the time he very well could have retaken quite a bit of Anatolia before dying.

My aim was to have a Byzantium that could not afford to just start expelling the Turks from Anatolia as soon as it recovered, but I admit to not knowing much of the history of what happened right after the Rum Seljuks fractured.

 

[ImperialxWarlord]

My aim was to have a Byzantium that could not afford to just start expelling the Turks from Anatolia as soon as it recovered, but I admit to not knowing much of the history of what happened right after the Rum Seljuks fractured.

Well they probably wouldn’t be able to expel them all by the time michael VIII, many had been there for 200 years by that point. I do recall hearing about a second wave that came, these Turks movie leave or be removed but the rest would probably he allowed to stay as I fount the Romans would want an unending insurgency.

 

[Emperor Gustavus Adolphus]

A reverse Ottomon Empire could work. Ottomons took blood tax and converted the children to Islam and settled them in various parts of Anatolia and elsewhere.

Here we can think of something similar but not same. How about Byzantines taking in Slavic and other Orthodox settlers (Catholic, too if Schism doesn't occur) from the North and the West and settle them en-masse in Turkic and Arab regions, eventually Christianizing and Europeanizing these regions? That would give them a permanent hold on to those territories.

 

[Guardonion]

A reverse Ottomon Empire could work. Ottomons took blood tax and converted the children to Islam and settled them in various parts of Anatolia and elsewhere.

Here we can think of something similar but not same. How about Byzantines taking in Slavic and other Orthodox settlers (Catholic, too if Schism doesn't occur) from the North and the West and settle them en-masse in Turkic and Arab regions, eventually Christianizing and Europeanizing these regions? That would give them a permanent hold on to those territories.

...Just like how it gave the Ottomans a permanent hold over Europe?

 

[Emperor Gustavus Adolphus]

...Just like how it gave the Ottomans a permanent hold over Europe?

Sorry not permanent hold. Stronger hold. Eventually, when there is an hostility between Byzantines and Latins, Germans or the Slavs or there is an instability in the Empire, the non Hellenized populations could break away. That's because it isn't like the Ottomon thing but rather lands being given to citizens and aristocrats of fellow European ethnic groups in Europe within Christendom. I don't see why they couldn't become Greeks in a couple of generations. There are plenty of ethnic Greeks who are descended from Historically Northern migrants. The ones who have lighter skin, hair and eyes and they are still ethnic Greeks today. So the same could happen.

 

[Curtain Jerker]

I think Age of Miracles fits this bill.

Not anymore, if it ever did. By the early 17th Century (where the timeline is so far) Islam is essentially gone from Anatolia. I think in the empire proper there are more Armenian Christians than Muslims TBH after some vicious revolts and repressions.

Looking back, I'm not sure if Islam was ever enough to qualify the OP's rule but possibly in the early days? The situation was pretty fluid on the ground in the 13th/14th Centuries.