PC about Napoleon and Joseph

Let's say France wins the Napoleonic wars. Never mind how exactly this victory is achieved and how total it is, or how does the map of Europe look exactly, except that Joseph Bonaparte remains King of Spain under French protection.
Let's say Napoleon dies childless, while Joseph is still alive. Does that mean that the Crown of France goes to the King of Spain? IE does that mean that France and Spain are now under personal union? That could have a lot of consequences, I think. Is such a union possible? Would there be anyone who would be strongly opposed to that? If so, who are they and on what grounds do they oppose such a union, and if not, then I'd like to know why everyone is so willing to cooperate with something so big.
 
It's certainly possible for a union (with a total Napoleonic victory no-one could oppose it anyway) but I think it's likely Joseph will go to France and someone else will take the Spanish throne (there was a precedence for this, Joseph himself abandoned the crown of Naples for Spain at the behest of his brother). Even if Napoleon is victorious. Spain was never happy with French rule. We might see a more potentially popular ruler put on the throne of Spain, maybe even a compliant Spaniard?
 
Kovalenko said:
It's certainly possible for a union (with a total Napoleonic victory no-one could oppose it anyway) but I think it's likely Joseph will go to France and someone else will take the Spanish throne (there was a precedence for this, Joseph himself abandoned the crown of Naples for Spain at the behest of his brother). Even if Napoleon is victorious. Spain was never happy with French rule. We might see a more potentially popular ruler put on the throne of Spain, maybe even a compliant Spaniard?
More likely a junior Bonaparte, a relative or one of Napoleon's marshalls would be chosen to replace Joseph in Spain if he becomes Emperor of France.
 
Joseph himself is opposed to personal union after his passing, and not terribly thrilled with it during his lifetime: his biggest ambition was a crown for his daughter, and he can pass her the Spanish crown if Napoleon himself is dead. She can't ever have the French one, in part because male-exclusive succession remains law in France, and in part because her husband was barred from the throne by Napoleon I. He (and lots of people in both Spain and France) would argue that no extant treaty or law actually invalidates the clause of the Treaty of Utrecht, which forbids a personal union of France and Spain, and abdicate the Spanish crown in order to accept the French one (which he will pass on to Louis and his progeny soon enough).

I don't think Joseph, or anyone else, has the muscle in this scenario to change French law to accept an Empress Regnant. So he's not going to be able to pass on crowns to both of his daughters. Conversely, Emperor Joseph wouldn't stand for any nephew or French Marshal getting Spain - that belongs to his little girl.

He gains nothing personally by demanding a personal union which will last only for the few short years of life he has left. He'll abdicate for his daughter and that will be that. He WON'T just decline the French throne in favor of Louis, out of the very reasonable fear that if he does not establish his daughter as a Queen Regnant, his surviving brothers etc. will toss her aside upon his death.
 
Let's say France wins the Napoleonic wars. Never mind how exactly this victory is achieved and how total it is, or how does the map of Europe look exactly, except that Joseph Bonaparte remains King of Spain under French protection.
Let's say Napoleon dies childless, while Joseph is still alive. Does that mean that the Crown of France goes to the King of Spain? IE does that mean that France and Spain are now under personal union? That could have a lot of consequences, I think. Is such a union possible? Would there be anyone who would be strongly opposed to that? If so, who are they and on what grounds do they oppose such a union, and if not, then I'd like to know why everyone is so willing to cooperate with something so big.


OK way to few details in the parts that matter.

First off, the type of Victory is a HUGE deal. Are we talking a a successful invasion of Russia? Are we talking invading the UK? Or are we suggesting a sustained Negotiated Peace with the Coalition allies? This needs to be answered.

Second, how does Napoleon die? Of old age/disease? In battle? Or some other way I'm not thinking of? Because I'm pretty sure Napoleonic succession allowed Napoleon to name his own heir. So I doubt Joseph would ever become Emperor.

Third, why doesn't Napoleon have his own son? Does he fail to have one with Marie Louise or does he remain married to Josephine? If its the former then we could see a possible Emperor Joseph I. If its the later, however, then I think we would see one of Louis and Hortense's sons be named Heir to the throne, as was the original plan while Napoleon was still married to Josephine.

Fourth, even IF, and that's a big if, Joseph succeeds in France, there will NEVER be a personal Union between France and Spain. None of the Elite in either country would want to see that. Not to mention governing such a Union would be next to impossible. So he would have to either give up Spain or France. If he gives up France the throne would go to Louis and his children. If he gives up Spain , it would presumably go to Zénaïde, though I'm not sure if the Salic law in Spain was ever abolished under the Bonapartes. If he was smart he would marry Zénaïde to a Spanish Bourbon Prince, to give the regime a sort of legitimacy that it lacked.
 
It could be like Austria/Tuscany with Tuscany de facto providing the back-up line to Austrian rulers.

After all, Joseph doesn't have a son so when he dies, if his next youngest brother has the throne of Spain then we're looking at him or his son taking the imperial crown and the throne of Spain moving down the imperial line another step

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
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