PC - A Chinese fascist revolution in the 1920s?

What are the odds of an openly and unapologetic fascist movement emerging in China in the early 1920s and becoming a viable, indeed successful, alternative to the Communists and Nationalists?

Basically something like the Blue Shirts but a rival of the KMT, not part of it.
 

Titus_Pullo

Banned
What are the odds of an openly and unapologetic fascist movement emerging in China in the early 1920s and becoming a viable, indeed successful, alternative to the Communists and Nationalists?

Basically something like the Blue Shirts but a rival of the KMT, not part of it.


I dont see it happening in the 1920s. 1930s possible, as the nationalists had close ties with Germany. Chang Kai Shek's son even went to military school in Germany and commanded a panzer unit in the wehrmacht during the annexation of Austria.

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It'll be a thoroughly adapted version of fascism, much more reminiscent of Mussolini's fascism with trappings of the German Nazi movement but with more of a just "Chinese" bent rather than any sense of discrimination and such.

Things That Will Make The Cut:

1. Nationalism (obviously).

2. Militarism.

3. Anti-communism.

4. Emphasis on traditional values and the concept of a proud, old Chinese people (most likely a call to return to Confucian ideals).

Things That Won't

1. Virulent racism.

2. Expansionism (Revanchism, mind you, will be there in spades, expansionism not so much.)

3. Colonialism/Imperialism, China is all about ending the legacy of imperialism in their country, that won't work as easily.
 

Titus_Pullo

Banned
Virulent anti-semitism could still rear its head in a Chinese brand Fascism if it takes hold in the 1930s, with German Nazis already in China helping mold Chinese Fascism by claiming that China has been the victim of Jewish capitalist greed and imperialism.
 
Virulent anti-semitism could still rear its head in a Chinese brand Fascism if it takes hold in the 1930s, with German Nazis already in China helping mold Chinese Fascism by claiming that China has been the victim of Jewish capitalist greed and imperialism.

The one Jewish community in China that went there was assimilated into Chinese society generations ago.

There aren't enough Jews in China for any of the people to even remotely care. They're beneath the notice of the Chinese people for the time being.

Besides, why not take advantage of their hate of the Russians and Japanese? They have WAY more reasons to hate the latter two than the Jews.

Of course this is assuming we see a more Axis-leaning China that may even displace Imperial Japan.
 
Who would Fascist China launch a revenge war with? Japan?

Unlikely, they need to consolidate their own holdings first, even after the Northern Expedition most of the country was not under Kuomintang rule, that would be rectified before anyone entertained foreign adventures.
 
However, if there was any one power that a fascist China would be aiming a future war against, it would certainly be Japan.

A revanchist war against the Soviet Union might be another possibility, considering the ideological differences between the two. There'd also still be considerable ill-will against the British and French, both of whom still have concession zones in China.

Within China, while there won't be specifically directed racism, we might see the rights of Mongols, Manchus, Uighurs and Tibetans reduced to a second class status along with the odd pogrom in favor of fostering the majority Han Chinese.
 
Eh, I think it's going to be less of a European racism and more of a "you will surrender your traditional identity to the all-encompassing Chinese state" sort of issue. It's a forced assimilation, not a killing. Chinese culture is really all about that sort of thing, it would be a foreign imposition to have them change it.

Somehow I see this authoritarian China as relatively pragmatic... which means they're cutting a deal with someone they traditionally dislike to fight someone they hate more, that is to say, they leave the Soviets be while they focus on Japan.

They're going to react to Japan in a more defensive way though, not trying to do something silly like invade the Home Isles but more of trying to toss them out of Korea and their possessions on the mainlaind.

In any case, the first and foremost priority will be in overrunning whatever warlords remain in China.
 
Come to think of it so does the current nominally communist government.

Eh, people bash me for this but the only real difference between communism and fascism is the route taken to get to an authoritarian state.

One's a dictatorship in the name of the state, the other in the name of the people. Fascism is at least more honest about what it really is instead of throwing glitter and other nicities about equality for the people.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Things That Won't

1. Virulent racism.
This will be interesting. Early 20th century China was very conscious of its multiethnic nature, as shown in the "five races sharing harmony" concept. It'll be interesting to see how fascism would effect that.

That being said, we'll probably see some pretty nasty anti-Japanese racism, strong Russophobia (anticommunism, donchya know), and a great deal of hostility towards France and the UK.

The US and Germany may have pride of place.

2. Expansionism (Revanchism, mind you, will be there in spades, expansionism not so much.)
It's not really fascism if it's not expansionist. Expansionism will be there, it'll just be focused on Mongolia, Sinkiang, Tibet, Manchuria, and Formosa instead of the European Concessions.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
One's a dictatorship in the name of the state, the other in the name of the people. Fascism is at least more honest about what it really is instead of throwing glitter and other nicities about equality for the people.
Where did that myth that fascism is about worship of the State come from? It is no such thing. Fascism is the worship of the folk/nation/ethnicity. A cursory look at fascist history will show that fascist movements only ever competed with the State apparatus, even when they assumed power.

Communism acts in the name of "the People" and theoretically seeks equality for all of its citizens. Fascism acts in the name of the folk/nation/ethnicity, which is just a more selective version of "the People", and then stresses said group's "special relationship" with History and domination of other peoples.
 
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Wolfpaw

Banned
Folk/Nation/Ethnicity?

What exactly do you think the state is?
A territory considered as an organized political community under one government apparatus.

And are you asking what "folk/nation/ethnicity" mean? Because they're more or less synonymous.
 
A far earlier POD, maybe the Qing being far more Pro-Manchu, could lead to a form of Nazism, albeit Racist Fascism, among the Han people. But thats still a pretty long shot.
 
Now, if China becomes Fascist, how different would that make World War II? Loyalties would be a bit complicated unless Japan decides not to attack the United States, but I don't think that change would occur.
 
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