Patton Lives

What would happen if Patton in 1945 doesn't get killed in a car accident. Maybe he doesn't feel well the day he wants to go hunting, so he stays home. What would the world be like with General Patton alive after 1945?
 
Well, his logistical ability would have made him valuable in the German occupation, but his political opinions would have made him a loose cannon. He hated the way that the peace had been handled, hated the Soviets, hated the former low level Nazis that he saw getting easy breaks, and hated that he wasn't fighting in the Pacific (or in Korea if he is still in uniform then.)

I wouldn't be surprised if he followed Churchill in calling for a harder line against the Soviet Union. If he became too outspoken to the point that it disrupted the German occupation or the tense postwar balance, maybe Truman would have to dismiss him in the same way as he did OTL MacArthur.

Can't see him actually holding political office though. He'd have no use for the compromise and back room deals that would come with the job. He gave orders, and saw that they were followed. Not that easy in civilian life.
 
Patton was not a superselfish narcissist like MacArthur. Patton was a nervous, excitable and eccentric person who felt very guilty when one of his outbursts or errors of political judgement caused disappointment to a superior officer. If he'd been in charge in Korea (a big if, since a tank commander would not have been in charge of an amphibious invasion) he would have followed orders and he and Truman would probably have gotten along okay if Truman, like Ike, had recognized and made allowances for his eccentricity.

But bring together Patton, Obama, and Rolling Stones magazine...? Now there's a good ASB scenario.
 

Typo

Banned
I seem to recall, maybe I'm wrong, but that Patton and Nixon shared the same congressional district. Patton could butterfly Nixon out of politics
 
Patton and Politics ?

He punctuated his political speech with the same profanity that he had used with the troops!
Patton speeches: "Partental Advisory : Explicit Content" :p

Patton stay in U.S.Army?
after WW2 until Korea war
He will continued working on improvements to tanks, based on his experience during WW2
in Pentagon and White House, Patton will have same reputation as SAC General Curtis LeMay
would those two rampant Anticommunist be friends ?
IMHO Patton will suffer from depression after WW2, because "the good times are over"
unitl Korea war breakes lose and he can return with the Third Army into War

will he do it and cross the Chines border or worst the Soviet border ?
 
Patton might have very well stayed in the army until he died, (possibly the only way to get him to leave short of forced retirement/dismissal) but one thing is certain: He would never enter politics. Period.

He had no interest in being a politician. He wasn't possessed of the same disposition as Ike or Marshall; he was a fighter, not a negotiator or gladhandler. Politics require both of those things and a whole lot more that Patton had neither the patience or stomach for.

Patton was a soldier and was satisfied to be nothing more. He was good at it and took great pride in being good at it.

Would have been interesting to see what Patton could have done in Korea (post landings) though, especially with Pershings and...um, whatever M46's (and the rest of OTL's Pattons) would have been named if he'd lived.

Also, had he lived, I wonder if the "Patton" series tanks would have been radically different due to input from Patton himself.

I wonder how he'd have handled being right about Berlin: feeling vindicated or utterly depressed.

Patton didn't just want to take Berlin, but understood just how important it was to whoever got there first and understood that it was imperative for the west to take it.

When Ike denied William Simpson's request to make a sprint for Berlin, stating that he was unwilling to risk the possibility of high casualties for something "strategically insignificant", Patton was incredulous.

Patton backed Simpson and said: "Ike, I don't see how you figure that out. We better take Berlin, and quick-and on to the Oder!"

Ike countered that with it's wrecked infrastructure and hordes of refugees, it'd be more a liability than an asset and actually asked: "Who would want it?"

Patton, prophetically replied: "I think history will answer that question for you."

Can't help but wonder if "Patton's Warning" echoed in Ike's ears as he watched the Berlin Wall go up...
 

Kharn

Banned
Patton in politics:eek:? Nah. Whew.

Seriously, if he did go that route, he'd not get far...

Bullshit. Our glorious champion would have ended Communism. The Reds would stain Asia with their Blood! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! LeMay for VP!
 
Bullshit. Our glorious champion would have ended Communism. The Reds would stain Asia with their Blood! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! LeMay for VP!

Not really... IMHO the public won't take very well to his very colourful vocabulary. Besides, I don't think he gives a hoot about politics either. He's a fighter, not a pen-pusher.
 
Patton conquers Korea and China? Ridiculous. First, Korea is not exactly tank country. Second, the U.S. didn't have the logistics or the manpower to launch an invasion of China with or without tanks. They didn't have air supremacy, and Stalin would have been willing to pour in the MIGs with well trained Soviet pilots in North Korea uniforms. The only way to do it would have been with nuclear weapons, and the results for the entire world would have been catastrophic. The U.S. ended up winning the Cold War via containment and I can't understand why anyone with hindsight would give credence to McArthur's go for broke strategy in Korea (or LeMay's let's-roll suggestions during the Cuban Missile Crisis). It's not a matter of BLOOD; its a matter of hundreds of millions dead; radioactive slag; Chernobyl a hundred time over.

As to Berlin, Ike was right. The occupation zones were already settled before the fall of Germany. Berlin ended up with U.S., British and French zones within the preagreed larger zones (and the Western allies had between them a much larger portion and the most industrially advanced areas of Germany). The Soviets had an overwhelming numerical advantage in tanks and manpower, and probably a parity in air power. They probably had the best and most experienced generals. So they could have stood down any Patton fantasy of driving "on to the Oder" (i.e., take ALL of Germany). Indeed, considering that they did the heaviest lifting in the war, and suffered by far the worst casualties, they would not have tolerated a Western attempt to control all of Berlin and deprive them of any occupation zone. But of course it wouldn't have come to that--both sides were too exhausted to lock horns until a few years later.

If anybody's to blame for the Soviets being able to occupy most of Eastern Europe and the future East Germany, it's not Ike restraining a superhuman Patton (who really had a relatively small tank force by Soviet standards--and one composed of tanks that weren't as good as the T-34), it's the U.S. Congress (both parties) in the late 1930s which refused to see the writing on the wall and get the country prepared in time. If our army and military production had been built up sooner (and if the Manhattan Project had been started sooner), the war might have been won with the Soviets still stuck short of Warsaw--and there might have been enough additional resources for Churchill's drive into the Balkans as a supplement to the invasions of Normandy and Southern France. One result would have been less need to placate ex-Nazis and make deals to defend Western Europe. A LOT more war criminals (like every single SS officer without exception) could have been hung as a salutary lesson to would-be war criminals of the future, including those in what would have been a much weaker Soviet sphere of influence.
 
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Korea might not have been tank country, but tanks were used by both sides. I think Patton's mouth might have gotten him retired by 1946.
 
Also, at a class I had devoted specifically to WWII, my professor pointed out that General Simpson ("Simpson, eh?") had stretched his supply lines too thin by the time he was in a position to march on Berlin. Even if the Soviets had stopped to have a spot of tea, Simpson might have run into a brick wall.

However, I pointed out that while the Germans on the Eastern Front fought insanely hard against the Soviets, most of them dropped their guns and started waving their white flags at the first sight of American, British, or French forces after they crossed the Rhine. This was borne from the fact that we didn't have a reputation as an army monstrous bloodthirsty rape machines. Simply put, Berlin might have been less bloody simply because the enemy could expect mercy if they said "Screw you gahs, Ah'm goin' home!"
 
What would happen if Patton in 1945 doesn't get killed in a car accident. Maybe he doesn't feel well the day he wants to go hunting, so he stays home. What would the world be like with General Patton alive after 1945?
The same as it is now. Patton had already taken the decision to resign from the army, due to the fact he had been sidelined to the command of the 15th Army( which was mostly a paper army with its major role being the writing of the official history of the US campaign in NW Europe) by Ike for making unwise public comments in favour of the use of Nazis in the post war administration of Germany
 
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Kharn

Banned
1. I agree on the manpower issue, if only because we would have had to institute the draft and....yeah.... 2. If the Cold War had went totally hot then, the USSR really wouldn't have been able to do much. They didn't have that many nukes at the time and their delivery systems were less than reliable. We, on the other hand, had plenty of nukes and could get them where they would need to be. In other words, the US would have been temporarily crippled and would have been back to Superpower status by the 70's. At the latest. The USSR and Red China would have been completely screwed.
 
If the Cold War had went totally hot then, the USSR really wouldn't have been able to do much. They didn't have that many nukes at the time and their delivery systems were less than reliable. We, on the other hand, had plenty of nukes and could get them where they would need to be. In other words, the US would have been temporarily crippled and would have been back to Superpower status by the 70's. At the latest. The USSR and Red China would have been completely screwed.

In hind site, no point to it. The West won the Cold War without all this. U.S. back to normal by the 70s? Hey, the Cold War was won only 10 years later. The day Gorbachov came to office it was basically won but nobody knew it for a few years.

The only conceivable reason for taking out the Soviets and Chinese Communists at that time would have been to save the populations of those countries from mass murder. But the mass killing ceased in the Soviet Union with the death of Stalin, and as to the famines and cultural revolution killings in Mao's China, well, there's such a thing as killing the patient. A nuclear war would have killed as many as Mao killed. And we'd have to watch our backs with the Chinese and Russians for the next 500 years.

Furthermore, the last time I checked, the U.S. wasn't in the business of going to total war for humanitarian reasons or for starting conflicts that would result in the deaths of millions of American civilians except for the direst of national security life and death reasons. Even John Foster Dulles didn't think the circumstances were that dire. The early cold warriors knew that communism was an inefficient and uncreative system and that containment would probably work over time.
 

Commissar

Banned
I wonder how he'd have handled being right about Berlin: feeling vindicated or utterly depressed.

Patton didn't just want to take Berlin, but understood just how important it was to whoever got there first and understood that it was imperative for the west to take it.

When Ike denied William Simpson's request to make a sprint for Berlin, stating that he was unwilling to risk the possibility of high casualties for something "strategically insignificant", Patton was incredulous.

Patton backed Simpson and said: "Ike, I don't see how you figure that out. We better take Berlin, and quick-and on to the Oder!"

Ike countered that with it's wrecked infrastructure and hordes of refugees, it'd be more a liability than an asset and actually asked: "Who would want it?"

Patton, prophetically replied: "I think history will answer that question for you."

Can't help but wonder if "Patton's Warning" echoed in Ike's ears as he watched the Berlin Wall go up...

There are two stories about why Ike sent the Boys to Czechoslovakia instead of Berlin.

One: There were valuable things and people there the Western Allies did not want in Soviet Hands.

Two: Ike was being stupid.

Pick the one you want.
 

Kharn

Banned
In hind site, no point to it. The West won the Cold War without all this. U.S. back to normal by the 70s? Hey, the Cold War was won only 10 years later. The day Gorbachov came to office it was basically won but nobody knew it for a few years.

The only conceivable reason for taking out the Soviets and Chinese Communists at that time would have been to save the populations of those countries from mass murder. But the mass killing ceased in the Soviet Union with the death of Stalin, and as to the famines and cultural revolution killings in Mao's China, well, there's such a thing as killing the patient. A nuclear war would have killed as many as Mao killed. And we'd have to watch our backs with the Chinese and Russians for the next 500 years.

1. That's the absolute latest.
2. The amount of Chinese and Russians killed would have been in the hundreds of millions and at least a hundred million for Russia.
3. It amounts to what would have been the greatest slaughter in human history. This in no way good, but you are severely incorrect about having the watch our back for Chinese and Russians. There wouldn't have been that many left. Certainly not enough to ever regain even Great Power status in the next century.
4. The worst part? It sets a dangerous precedent. Think TBO-verse. But realistic. Yeah, that bad.
5. I am hating having to edit to put the spaces in place.
 
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