Patton in Poland

[Trotsky]

But I got the coolest idea. Patton teams up with whoever and do a rerun of the MMexican campain. He dresses up in civilian clothes and capture Göring, strap him to the hood of his car. Patton ends up in the OSS or gets borrowed by the SOE.

...

Anyway, I suppose if the Polish Army had gone on the defensive along the river lines away from the border, with a lighter force closer to the border, then they might have been able to blunt or even halt the German attack. I don't know how long the Wehrmacht could've been staved off. Not indefinitely, and as long as the French sit on the western front than ultimately the Germans would've taken Warsaw. Don't forget that the Soviets were supposed to come in from the east at some point during the campaign.

 

[Amerigo Vespucci]

I guess that Patton might be to high ranking but the US was not isolationist enogh to not send out military ataches. It is kind of a diplomat anyway. Yuck, I have to do research.

The first American killed in WWII was the American military attache to Finland, who was killed when the Soviets bombed Helsinki.

 

[jolo]

If the Polish Generals had let an outsider (like Patton) look into their defense plans, he might have discovered a few of the obvious flaws - trying to defend every square meter of Polish territory, bad communications, low mobility (little learning from contemporary strategic thinking), little defense against tanks, little air defense, bad mobilisation readiness, and so on. I'm not sure how much Patton knows about all this, but some of the Polish Generals should, and they may gain the upper hand due to such a discussion.

Imagine the Polish army using artillery as anti tank guns, a flexible strategy of retreating from strong enemy attacks and advancing into weak spots, Blitzkrieg tactics themselves, better cover against air raids and enemy intelligence, and so on. Just once trapping the very exposed German tank army in an ambush with artillery and destroying it would probably be enough to slow down German advances for a few months, which might make Russia back out of any war. The salvaged tanks could easily be used against Germany (and Russia), too. That might also give the Polish government some time to pressure France and Britain into ending the phony war and attacking Germany from the West.

 

[seraphim74]

Originally posted by jolo
If the Polish Generals had let an outsider (like Patton) look into their defense plans, he might have discovered a few of the obvious flaws - trying to defend every square meter of Polish territory, bad communications, low mobility (little learning from contemporary strategic thinking), little defense against tanks, little air defense, bad mobilisation readiness, and so on. I'm not sure how much Patton knows about all this, but some of the Polish Generals should, and they may gain the upper hand due to such a discussion.
Imagine the Polish army using artillery as anti tank guns, a flexible strategy of retreating from strong enemy attacks and advancing into weak spots, Blitzkrieg tactics themselves, better cover against air raids and enemy intelligence, and so on. Just once trapping the very exposed German tank army in an ambush with artillery and destroying it would probably be enough to slow down German advances for a few months, which might make Russia back out of any war. The salvaged tanks could easily be used against Germany (and Russia), too. That might also give the Polish government some time to pressure France and Britain into ending the phony war and attacking Germany from the West.

Very nice, but to give all those excellent advices Patton would have needed to know also German plans. Remember, the Bliztkrieg tactics was first used in Poland. It's all look easy from the hindsight. Bad communications (critical here), poor air defense - they were more technological and logistical problems: Poland simply didn't have enough of modern radios and anti-aircraft cannons.
Mobilization readiness - Polish mobilization was called off, when British and French diplomats pressed Polish goverment not to provoke Hitler. Poles began it again day later, but confusion was already made (BTW it's true, Polish mobilization system was not very effective).
Using blitzkrieg tactics against Germans? You must have good communications network to achieve that, not to mention air superiority and big tanks units. Any bigger concentration of Polish troops would be quickly spotted and attacked.
Retreating from strong enemy attacks? And let them dance freely behind your lines?
Polish defence plan was far from flawless (the biggest mistake was trying to defend every part of Polish territory - it was a political decision). It could have been done better. If Patton really looked into Polish plans and with some divine intuition guessed what Germans would do, he might have helped. But Poland had no chance of stopping Germans without western help. Poles could only slow Wehrmacht down - and they knew it.

 

[jolo]

Very nice, but to give all those excellent advices Patton would have needed to know also German plans. Remember, the Bliztkrieg tactics was first used in Poland. It's all look easy from the hindsight. Bad communications (critical here), poor air defense - they were more technological and logistical problems: Poland simply didn't have enough of modern radios and anti-aircraft cannons.
Mobilization readiness - Polish mobilization was called off, when British and French diplomats pressed Polish goverment not to provoke Hitler. Poles began it again day later, but confusion was already made (BTW it's true, Polish mobilization system was not very effective).
Using blitzkrieg tactics against Germans? You must have good communications network to achieve that, not to mention air superiority and big tanks units. Any bigger concentration of Polish troops would be quickly spotted and attacked.
Retreating from strong enemy attacks? And let them dance freely behind your lines?
Polish defence plan was far from flawless (the biggest mistake was trying to defend every part of Polish territory - it was a political decision). It could have been done better. If Patton really looked into Polish plans and with some divine intuition guessed what Germans would do, he might have helped. But Poland had no chance of stopping Germans without western help. Poles could only slow Wehrmacht down - and they knew it.

While I personally mentioned all this out of a hindsight perspective, I believe I mainly pointed out things that could have been guessed in advance - sufficient communications for instance would have been possible by just saving the money on a few tanks. As someone else mentioned before, Blitzkrieg tactics were publicly known about 3 years before the war - enough time to form at least one combined arms unit and to modernize the other units a little bit strategically (esp. cooperation abilities).

I also believe orderly retreat is better than loosing whole divisions - there should always be second, third and even further lines to retreat to and cause some losses to the agressor on the way.

I also said that even the best changes would probably not cause Poland to win - just give them enough time for the Allies to intervene.

 

[seraphim74]

Originally posted by jolo.
While I personally mentioned all this out of a hindsight perspective, I believe I mainly pointed out things that could have been guessed in advance - sufficient communications for instance would have been possible by just saving the money on a few tanks. As someone else mentioned before, Blitzkrieg tactics were publicly known about 3 years before the war - enough time to form at least one combined arms unit and to modernize the other units a little bit strategically (esp. cooperation abilities).
I also believe orderly retreat is better than loosing whole divisions - there should always be second, third and even further lines to retreat to and cause some losses to the agressor on the way.
I also said that even the best changes would probably not cause Poland to win - just give them enough time for the Allies to intervene.

Points taken, but:
- if the communication were paid with money spared on tanks, how could Poles Bliztkirieg back?
- the theory of Blitzkrieg was indeed known earlier - but not even Germans were sure, if it really could work; however, you're right about time to prepare some counterstrategy; unfortunately Polish commanders were to conservative (not all of them) and Poland was too poor to quickly create big mechanized units; in 1939 Polish Army had one small motorized cavalry brigade (10th) and Warsaw Mechanized Brigade was being organized.
- Poles indeed reatreated, when they could; problem was that units in march are even more vulnerable to enemy attacks; and infantry is too slow comparing to tanks - Germans simply advanced quicker, than Poles could retreat.
As to the rest, you're right. Most of problems were caused by bad communication and fast German advances. Polish HQ almost always reacted too late. And of course, Poland could not win alone.
Actually, this whole thread changes into discussion, "WI Poland did better in 1939". Maybe I start a new thread?
Oh, and thanks, jolo, for interesting discussion.

 

[tinfoil]

I guess that Patton might be to high ranking but the US was not isolationist enogh to not send out military ataches. It is kind of a diplomat anyway. Yuck, I have to do research.

Patton was only promoted to Brigadier General AFTER the German Blitz caused the US military to ramp up on the armour. So he was presumably a colonel or L-colonel before that. This is a low enough rank to use him as an attache, but also low enough to ensure that his views wouldn't be taken to heart by the Polish senior staff.

Besides, Patton's personality was just about the opposite of the type of officer the Army would use as a foreign attache.

 

[Trotsky]

Besides, Patton's personality was just about the opposite of the type of officer the Army would use as a foreign attache.

Yes. He made a lot of PR mistakes through the course of the war. Who's to say he wouldn't make those mistakes in a Polish posting? He was brash and wasn't always watchful on what he said. If the War Department or the State Department or whatever section decides who gets to play military attache, they would not select Patton.