Patton in Korea/MacArthur in the White House

[HerbertVonKarajan]

It is official now. Nixon is my favorite character in this timeline, so I believe this representation of him is now very fitting for how much of an absolute CHAD he is at the very moment.

I do love how Hoover already knew of what those two were planning, but the fact that MacArthur and Nixon still outmaneuvered him managed to still put Hoover out of the job is very pleasing. Now on a side note, Harry Truman's little piece at the end is very ominous and frankly even sent chills down my spine too when I read that piece, but screw it. I am going all the way with MacArthur on this one. At this point, he is like a runaway Hudson Locomotive and there is nothing in it's way to stop it.

 

[Bob in Pittsburgh]

I do love how Hoover already knew of what those two were planning, but the fact that MacArthur and Nixon still outmaneuvered him managed to still put Hoover out of the job is very pleasing.

I am sure Hoover had "stuff" on both Nixon and MacArthur and I find it implausible that he did not release it on his way out the door. Heck in MacArthur's case you had the illegal payment he extracted from the Philippines in 1942. The Statute of Limitations would have run so he could not be prosecuted but the political fallout would have been spectacular.

 

[lukedalton]

I am sure Hoover had "stuff" on both Nixon and MacArthur and I find it implausible that he did not release it on his way out the door. Heck in MacArthur's case you had the illegal payment he extracted from the Philippines in 1942. The Statute of Limitations would have run so he could not be prosecuted but the political fallout would have been spectacular.

Well he do that for spite and Dewey and the rest of the Mac administration will make their objective number one in making his life and the lifes of all his men a living hell and they have all the mean to do that, so Edna make the smart decision and retire with dignity and mantaining is legacy in the american culture (for now)

 

[Draconis]

Very true - I'm well aware it's not a perfect poll, but as I can't ISOT myself into the TL to conduct a proper one, it will have to do. Though if as anti-Mac a site as AH.com is giving him 87% approval, I don't think it is unreasonable to say that his in-universe ratings would be somewhere in the 70s% ?- BNC

The MacArthur you are portraying in your superb storyline is seen as a more admirable person by most of your readership. Or, at least they simply like your story.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

I am sure Hoover had "stuff" on both Nixon and MacArthur and I find it implausible that he did not release it on his way out the door. Heck in MacArthur's case you had the illegal payment he extracted from the Philippines in 1942. The Statute of Limitations would have run so he could not be prosecuted but the political fallout would have been spectacular.

MacArthur could pardon everyone else Hoover accused and then throw Hoover into jail for breaches of legislation on wiretapping and much more.

Embarrassing MacArthur and his cronies might not look so attractive with that trade off. Arguably Hoover gathered the intelligence illicitly in many cases so a pardon might not even be necessary.

 

[Xenophonte]

MacArthur could pardon everyone else Hoover accused and then throw Hoover into jail for breaches of legislation on wiretapping and much more.

I would agree that it could be the easiest way to deal with the Hoover's files, but first, I'm not sure that a POTUS could pardon anybody from the possible involved people before that a judicial process/prosecution would be started also and depending on what would be the crime (or past or present 'deeds' to be blackmailed for) magnitude...
Cause, perhaps in some cases, either the political cost could be too much or even, could be that the blackmail material would be such that for the times moral would be certain to be a career/life wracking event for some or most of the people exposed for any possible Hoover's files leakage.

 

[Kennedy Forever]

While Hoover maybe gone as FBI director I don't think his dirt file is. For all we know now that he no longer is head of the FBI he could leak it in a "I have nothing left to lose" type scenario

 

[Hcira1]

I'd have thought that MacArthur and Nixon would have worked with Hoover enthusiasticallyWasn't Hoover another icon of the Right?

Theoretically I would agree, but I think the larger issue is just a clash of egos and personality.

 

[Bob in Pittsburgh]

MacArthur could pardon everyone else Hoover accused and then throw Hoover into jail for breaches of legislation on wiretapping and much more.

Embarrassing MacArthur and his cronies might not look so attractive with that trade off. Arguably Hoover gathered the intelligence illicitly in many cases so a pardon might not even be necessary.

If it were that easy to get rid of Hoover why didn't someone do it? Pardons are not the panacea that they may seem. While the legal structure seems unlimited history, including recent history, shows that public opinion if nothing else limits the pardon power. There also is a very real question if the President can pardon himself.

 

[Wet Coast]

I am sure Hoover had "stuff" on both Nixon and MacArthur and I find it implausible that he did not release it on his way out the door. Heck in MacArthur's case you had the illegal payment he extracted from the Philippines in 1942. The Statute of Limitations would have run so he could not be prosecuted but the political fallout would have been spectacular.

I'm pretty sure Hoover would have thought of the consequences to himself before resorting to that. Petty revenge vs the rest of his life in solitary confinement (cause he'd last about 30 seconds if put in the general population of a prison)

 

[Puzzle]

“I can’t believe it.” Harry Truman said as he put down the evening paper, which said that a Congressional Committee had agreed to FBI Director Dewey’s recommendation that Hoover’s infamous files be destroyed in full. “The Big General got away with it.”

Would the blackmail files be publicly admitted to exist? I feel like most voters would think that corruption should be brought to light, and destroying them would just be sheltering the guilty or worse giving MacArthur the blackmail material.

 

[BiteNibbleChomp]

. Nixon is my favorite character in this timeline,

I've got more Nixon content planned

I am sure Hoover had "stuff" on both Nixon and MacArthur and I find it implausible that he did not release it on his way out the door. Heck in MacArthur's case you had the illegal payment he extracted from the Philippines in 1942. The Statute of Limitations would have run so he could not be prosecuted but the political fallout would have been spectacular.

What would Hoover have to gain from doing so? Embarrassing the government isn't exactly going to help him get his job back, and a bit of petty revenge isn't worth the retribution it would invite (and Hoover can be absolutely sure that Mac isn't bluffing in his threats to destroy Hoover either... he's got a reputation for clearing anyone who stands in his way out of his government, and he's pretty much singlehandedly responsible for bringing Harry Truman down). Plus, Mac is pretty much untouchable politically - he's not running again (though Hoover doesn't know that for sure), and a substantial wing in Congress practically worship him (and if Hoover starts trying to 'scorch the earth' with his files, that's only going to put more Congressmen on Mac's side).
And Dewey's going to make sure that any files in the FBI aren't allowed to leave and get back to Hoover, so there's a bit of a limit on what Hoover could do even if he wanted to.
So, not to say that it is impossible that Hoover would release the files out of spite, but there's some good reasons why he wouldn't.

As for Mac's Philippine payment, I'm fairly sure that, while it was extremely scummy by Mac, it was technically legal.

The MacArthur you are portraying in your superb storyline is seen as a more admirable person by most of your readership. Or, at least they simply like your story.

Is he really a more admirable person though?

If it were that easy to get rid of Hoover why didn't someone do it? Pardons are not the panacea that they may seem. While the legal structure seems unlimited history, including recent history, shows that public opinion if nothing else limits the pardon power. There also is a very real question if the President can pardon himself.

Who is public opinion going to side with? The war hero and extremely popular President, who probably also ranked #1 in Gallup's "most admired man" poll six or seven times* by now? Or the guy that runs the closest thing America had to the Gestapo?

(*= OTL Mac won this in '46, '47, and '51, and almost every other year it was the sitting President who won, so we can safely add '52, '53 and '54. Possibly '50 as well for his victories in Korea).

Would the blackmail files be publicly admitted to exist? I feel like most voters would think that corruption should be brought to light, and destroying them would just be sheltering the guilty or worse giving MacArthur the blackmail material.

I don't think it is really feasible that absolutely nothing gets out - there's too many people involved once Dewey turns the matter over to Congress, and Hoover is much too high profile to just disappear unnoticed. What seems more reasonable is that Dewey says something in the papers to the effect of "we've found a bunch of papers proving that Hoover was spying on American citizens without authorisation, and those documents are going to be destroyed" without necessarily stating that most of the government is included in that group of 'American citizens'. If the scandal blew up any more than that, destroying the documents probably becomes a case of 'Ford pardoning Nixon' - not a choice Dewey wants to have to make, but one he does so the country can move on.

(Speaking of which, Ford is probably one of my top 5 or so Presidents, so I'm going to grant him his wish of one day becoming Speaker of the House ITTL)

- BNC

 

[Knightmare]

I don't think it is really feasible that absolutely nothing gets out - there's too many people involved once Dewey turns the matter over to Congress, and Hoover is much too high profile to just disappear unnoticed. What seems more reasonable is that Dewey says something in the papers to the effect of "we've found a bunch of papers proving that Hoover was spying on American citizens without authorisation, and those documents are going to be destroyed" without necessarily stating that most of the government is included in that group of 'American citizens'. If the scandal blew up any more than that, destroying the documents probably becomes a case of 'Ford pardoning Nixon' - not a choice Dewey wants to have to make, but one he does so the country can move on.

With maybe a few high ranking Congressmen being told just how fucking extensive they were, and how a lot of their colleagues featured in them.

And how while they could enter all these very embarrassing and awkward documents into official records, well, it would be far easier for all if they all went to the great incinerator in the Sky.

While Hoover maybe gone as FBI director I don't think his dirt file is. For all we know now that he no longer is head of the FBI he could leak it in a "I have nothing left to lose" type scenario

The issue is, Hoover lost the FBI HQ three hours before he got fired officially. And as this is the 50s, that means all his papers are physical only, in the FBI building. Which is now locked to him.

So he can say and bluster all he wants about what's in them, but nobody in the press is gonna run something like that for Hoover of all people with hard evidence. And for good measure, even if he does try leaking it, well, that means he goes from "Old man yelling at clouds" to "Someone the CIA needs to place in 'protective custody', 'for his own safety'."

 

[Kennedy Forever]

With maybe a few high ranking Congressmen being told just how fucking extensive they were, and how a lot of their colleagues featured in them.

And how while they could enter all these very embarrassing and awkward documents into official records, well, it would be far easier for all if they all went to the great incinerator in the Sky.


The issue is, Hoover lost the FBI HQ three hours before he got fired officially. And as this is the 50s, that means all his papers are physical only, in the FBI building. Which is now locked to him.

So he can say and bluster all he wants about what's in them, but nobody in the press is gonna run something like that for Hoover of all people with hard evidence. And for good measure, even if he does try leaking it, well, that means he goes from "Old man yelling at clouds" to "Someone the CIA needs to place in 'protective custody', 'for his own safety'."

Huh I don't know that. Thanks for telling me

 

[Drizzt]

Pardons are not the panacea that they may seem. While the legal structure seems unlimited history, including recent history, shows that public opinion if nothing else limits the pardon power. There also is a very real question if the President can pardon himself.

The Hoover files were all illegally obtained without warrants, probably cause, etc. They could ruin reputations and careers, but since they were illegally obtained they can't get their subjects into legal trouble so no pardons needed there. And speaking of reputations, careers and prosecutions: The administration has one extra card here: The agents who worked for Hoover collecting those files certainly could be put into a whole world of hurt for their illegal activities. A "Fully cooperate with Directer Dewey and we will let bygones be bygones, try any shenanigans and you'll be sharing a cell with insert homophobic slur here."-offer will see Hoovers friends in the Bureau drop him fast.

 

[marktaha]

I've got more Nixon content planned


What would Hoover have to gain from doing so? Embarrassing the government isn't exactly going to help him get his job back, and a bit of petty revenge isn't worth the retribution it would invite (and Hoover can be absolutely sure that Mac isn't bluffing in his threats to destroy Hoover either... he's got a reputation for clearing anyone who stands in his way out of his government, and he's pretty much singlehandedly responsible for bringing Harry Truman down). Plus, Mac is pretty much untouchable politically - he's not running again (though Hoover doesn't know that for sure), and a substantial wing in Congress practically worship him (and if Hoover starts trying to 'scorch the earth' with his files, that's only going to put more Congressmen on Mac's side).
And Dewey's going to make sure that any files in the FBI aren't allowed to leave and get back to Hoover, so there's a bit of a limit on what Hoover could do even if he wanted to.
So, not to say that it is impossible that Hoover would release the files out of spite, but there's some good reasons why he wouldn't.

As for Mac's Philippine payment, I'm fairly sure that, while it was extremely scummy by Mac, it was technically legal.


Is he really a more admirable person though?


Who is public opinion going to side with? The war hero and extremely popular President, who probably also ranked #1 in Gallup's "most admired man" poll six or seven times* by now? Or the guy that runs the closest thing America had to the Gestapo?

(*= OTL Mac won this in '46, '47, and '51, and almost every other year it was the sitting President who won, so we can safely add '52, '53 and '54. Possibly '50 as well for his victories in Korea).


I don't think it is really feasible that absolutely nothing gets out - there's too many people involved once Dewey turns the matter over to Congress, and Hoover is much too high profile to just disappear unnoticed. What seems more reasonable is that Dewey says something in the papers to the effect of "we've found a bunch of papers proving that Hoover was spying on American citizens without authorisation, and those documents are going to be destroyed" without necessarily stating that most of the government is included in that group of 'American citizens'. If the scandal blew up any more than that, destroying the documents probably becomes a case of 'Ford pardoning Nixon' - not a choice Dewey wants to have to make, but one he does so the country can move on.

(Speaking of which, Ford is probably one of my top 5 or so Presidents, so I'm going to grant him his wish of one day becoming Speaker of the House ITTL)

- BNC

Ford among the best- would you care to.elaborate?

 

[bguy]

The Hoover files were all illegally obtained without warrants, probably cause, etc. They could ruin reputations and careers, but since they were illegally obtained they can't get their subjects into legal trouble so no pardons needed there.

What if Hoover made copies of the files for himself though? (And even if the files are too voluminous to copy en masse, you would certainly expect him to make some extra copies of whatever he had on MacArthur, Nixon, and other key people in the administration once he got word they were investigating him.)

And speaking of reputations, careers and prosecutions: The administration has one extra card here: The agents who worked for Hoover collecting those files certainly could be put into a whole world of hurt for their illegal activities. A "Fully cooperate with Directer Dewey and we will let bygones be bygones, try any shenanigans and you'll be sharing a cell with insert homophobic slur here."-offer will see Hoovers friends in the Bureau drop him fast.

I think people are seriously overestimating the prospects of a successful prosecution in this matter. This is the 1950s, the public is far, far more forgiving of overzealous law enforcement at this time then they are today. And J. Edgar Hoover himself was an immensely respected figure by the general public. (IOTL there was an episode of I Love Luck in 1955 where Lucy got tricked by a conman into thinking she was helping the FBI catch a jewel thief, and she even said "anything for J. Edgar." Getting a positive mention on the most popular show in the country shows how trusted Hoover was by the public at this time.) As such any attempt to prosecute Hoover would likely be an utter fiasco (basically OTL's Oliver North hearings turned up to 11.) Hoover would get on the stand and insist that everything he did was necessary to keep America safe from crooks and communists, and the odds are that much of the jury (which is already predisposed to see Hoover as a hero) would agree with him. (Certainly a large percentage of the public would.) Furthermore, if Hoover has anything at all on Nixon that could possibly support criminal charges then Hoover will just argue that the whole prosecution against him is a hit job by a crooked Nixon to avoid prosecution himself. Attacking MacArthur directly would be foolish, but the idea of a corrupt Nixon lying to MacArthur to get his support, could certainly be made to seem plausible to the American people (who remember what happened to General Grant.) You never blame the king himself, it's always bad courtiers giving him bad advice.

But if prosecuting Hoover would be difficult, prosecuting the agents that were carrying out his orders is impossible. No jury in the world is going to send FBI agents to prison for following what would have appeared to be lawful orders from the director. And the type of men that were FBI agents were not the type that would fold in the face of what would so obviously be an empty threat.

 

[marathag]

This is the 1950s, the public is far, far more forgiving of overzealous law enforcement at this time then they are today.

But with the President, even more.
If he said there was a problem, people would believe him

 

[bguy]

But with the President, even more.
If he said there was a problem, people would believe him

That's why Hoover would have to focus his attacks on Nixon rather than MacArthur. The public won't be willing to believe their president is a bad man, but they can be made to believe that an otherwise good president is being lied to by a crooked subordinate. It happened to Grant and to Harding after all, so it would certainly be plausible to the American people that it could happen to MacArthur as well. And the fact that Ned Almond keeps MacArthur so insulated would make this an even easier argument for Hoover to make, since Hoover can (truthfully) state how he's been kept from even being able to talk to the president. That does look really suspicious given Hoover's level of access to the previous presidents. and it would certainly support a narrative that Almond and Nixon were deliberately isolating the president (which is exactly what a corrupt Attorney General would do if he wanted to keep his honest president from finding out what he was doing.)

This fight would also be a difficult PR battle for the administration to win because unless the administration makes the files public (which they presumably don't want to do) then they can't really refute Hoover's claims that these files contain vital evidence about corrupt politicians and communist agents.

 

[lukedalton]

That's why Hoover would have to focus his attacks on Nixon rather than MacArthur. The public won't be willing to believe their president is a bad man, but they can be made to believe that an otherwise good president is being lied to by a crooked subordinate. It happened to Grant and to Harding after all, so it would certainly be plausible to the American people that it could happen to MacArthur as well. And the fact that Ned Almond keeps MacArthur so insulated would make this an even easier argument for Hoover to make, since Hoover can (truthfully) state how he's been kept from even being able to talk to the president. That does look really suspicious given Hoover's level of access to the previous presidents. and it would certainly support a narrative that Almond and Nixon were deliberately isolating the president (which is exactly what a corrupt Attorney General would do if he wanted to keep his honest president from finding out what he was doing.)

This fight would also be a difficult PR battle for the administration to win because unless the administration makes the files public (which they presumably don't want to do) then they can't really refute Hoover's claims that these files contain vital evidence about corrupt politicians and communist agents.

Well the problem for Hoover is that even if he do that and win, his file will be gone and with that at lot of his capacity to 'convince' people and he already had a lot of enemies and now a lot of his 'coerced' support will be evaporated and transformed in opposition...and frankly i expect that if his victory seem possible, the Bureau will be purged of his suspected supporter very througfully and i include criminal charges.

Edit: basically even if succesfull it will be an hollow victory that will open him to retaliation