Do you approve or disapprove of the way that Douglas MacArthur is handling his job as president?

  • Approve

    Votes: 199 72.6%
  • Disapprove

    Votes: 75 27.4%

  • Total voters
    274
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Gott's plane didn't crash, as many say.
It was shot down by the Luftwaffe.

"Before he could take up his post, Gott was killed when the transport plane he was traveling in was shot down and destroyed while returning to Cairo from the battle area.[24][25] The aircraft, a Bristol Bombay of No. 216 Squadron RAF flown by 19-year-old Flight Sergeant Hugh "Jimmy" James, was intercepted and shot down by Unteroffizier Bernd Schneider and Emil Clade of Jagdgeschwader 27 (Fighter Wing 27). With both engines out, the pilot had made a successful crash landing, but two German Messerschmitt Bf 109 fighters attacked the crashed plane, strafing it until the Bombay was totally wrecked. Those who were unable to escape from the downed Bombay (including Gott) were killed. Gott's body was buried at the El Alamein War Cemetery."

What if Gott had lived?
 
Instead of having UN landing forces take Seoul and get bogged down in street fighting (IOTL), MacArthur should have ROK forces take the city. It gives the ROK army the honor of liberating their own capital (and shuts up Rhee). Thus freeing the UN landing force to maneuver and cut off the NK army from escaping north, while Patton drives from the south.

ric350
 
I can imagine Patton exploding if/when he hears about Doug's criticism of his advance. But this is a DAMN good story!
Glad you're enjoying it! :)

Instead of having UN landing forces take Seoul and get bogged down in street fighting (IOTL), MacArthur should have ROK forces take the city. It gives the ROK army the honor of liberating their own capital (and shuts up Rhee). Thus freeing the UN landing force to maneuver and cut off the NK army from escaping north, while Patton drives from the south.

ric350
Here's a map of where the front (very roughly) is at the start of September 1950, black being 8th Army. It's more-or-less OTL late July's positions moved forward or back as necessary (for reference, the OTL Pusan Perimeter had the Americans mostly on the western side and ROKs on the north). West of the 24th division, both sides have a small line formed all the way to the coast, so it's no longer possible to just "go around" the lines.

sept50.jpg

The main body of the ROK forces aren't particularly well positioned to lead the advance on Seoul from where they are, and although X Corps includes a fair amount of Korean troops, all three divisions (7th, 1st Marine, and a greatly understrength 3rd) are nominally US commands. Not sure the ROKs could do it on their own?

The ultimate clash of egos will begin; who will reach Seoul first?
Can't tell you that yet, I'm afraid. Military secrets and all that.

- BNC
 
BNC, I meant add a ROK contingent to the Inchon landing force, with the specific task of liberating Seoul. AFAIK there wasn’t a large NK force in the city, but house to house was nasty. Might give the ROK troops a chance to prove themselves and boost their moral (that is if they’re successful 😬).

ric350
 
That's a huge bulge right there, I'm surprised the Americans didn't get completely flanked yet.
Going by the 1951 map that I've been using to actually write the TL (it's too big to show the whole thing on the forum), there's only one large lateral road between Chungju and Taegu going across the line of the "bulge", that being between Yongju and Hamchang (Hamchang is the same latitude as Chongju for reference), and there's two smaller ones. The terrain is also some well in the Taebaek mountains... not exactly ideal attacking terrain. The UN as a whole has somewhere between 1.5-3:1 advantage in manpower over the NKPA depending on what numbers you use (and let's be real, deep in the mountains is not a likely spot for NK to concentrate their forces), and the NKPA has hardly any logistic ability to exploit a breakthrough. TLDR, not a very favourable place to attack!

OTL the North Koreans had one good opportunity to seriously outflank and defeat the UN, that was the 6th Division striking south and then east between the fall of Taejon and the first clash at Masan (so July 20-Aug 1). Historically they scattered the division to take Mokpo and Sunchon simultaneously, but Walker believed that if they concentrated everything on the Sunchon route and moved quickly enough, Pusan could have fallen (there was only a minimal garrison there at the time). Once that move failed, the UN was always going to have enough troops, artillery, &c to hold the line provided they didn't do anything deliberately stupid.

BNC, I meant add a ROK contingent to the Inchon landing force, with the specific task of liberating Seoul. AFAIK there wasn’t a large NK force in the city, but house to house was nasty. Might give the ROK troops a chance to prove themselves and boost their moral (that is if they’re successful 😬).

ric350
I wrote in that line of "one Army, one Marine, one Korean" division as a bit of MacArthur-esque 'sound awesome speak' (although the line ended up going to Wright), while keeping the OTL 2 1/2 or so division format. Seeing as it doesn't contradict what I wrote previously, I like your idea better :)
Funnily enough, one of the ROK divisions was called the "Capital Division" (the only named division they had). It has to be them, right?

- BNC
 
Part II, Chapter 9
PART II: HONOUR

CHAPTER 9


While in later clearer vision
I can sense the coppery sweat,
Feel the pikes grow wet and slippery
When our Phalanx, Cyrus met.

September 3, 1950


Sergeant Carl Dodd had volunteered to be on the first shift of guard duty tonight. It set a good example to the men, but that had little to do with his decision. The North Koreans liked to attack at night, usually an hour or two after the evening twilight, when they thought the Americans would be off their guard and unprepared. That wasn’t often the case in Eighth Army any more: as soon as 5th Regiment had linked up with the rest of the 24th Division, it had been rushed into a week’s intensive training, where a major handpicked by Patton had emphasised the need to be on guard at all times. Most of the army had been given a similar crash course. He also thought that an attack was likely. The communists attacked somewhere almost every night, rumours said they were getting even more desperate for a quick victory. Hill 699, now known to everyone as the Lump, was the highest ground in the area and captured just three days earlier. It had ‘target’ written all over it, and Dodd’s company was one of two manning the crest of the hill.
The three hours passed without incident, which was reason itself for Dodd to be nervous. The enemy wasn’t withdrawing from the sector: the quarter moon wasn’t giving a lot of light with all the clouds around, but there was just enough to see the communist lines buzzing with activity up ahead. When he smelt a whiff of the spiced or picked rubbish that Koreans seemed to fill their bellies with at every opportunity, he whispered to the private that was on duty alongside him. “Wake the men.” If his instinct was wrong, he would have to deal with a squad of tired and grumpy soldiers tomorrow.
A minute, maybe a minute and a half later, the North Koreans fired a bunch of green flares into the sky. That was their signal to attack (someone had told him that sometimes the Americans would fire green flares of their own above heavily defended sectors to bait the Koreans into an ambush, an idea he thought to be quite clever). His squad was up and ready, and others nearby were about to be. No Koreans would be taking the Lump tonight. Some were determined (or ordered) to try anyway.
Dodd fired his Garand at about the same time as half his squad did. Nobody aimed at anything, or anyone, in particular. A cloud had just moved to obscure the moon, so aiming wouldn’t improve things much regardless. Better to just shoot towards the north, as many times as you could, and scare the enemy off. A couple of fellows in the squad had taken Russian-made PPShs off dead Koreans a while back. Those things spat out lead like you’d never believe. One of them was firing off to the northwest, so Dodd decided to shift his aim in that direction as well.
As the clouds moved to reveal the moon once more, he could see dozens upon dozens of Koreans scrambling up the Lump. He threw a grenade towards them. One thing was certain: this was going to be a long night.

***

September 4, 1950

Patton was nervous. Almost every time that he was about to launch a major offensive, he felt nervous. For a moment, his mind went back to when he launched is first offensive against the Germans in 1918, when he had been unable to sleep and decided to scout the terrain in no man’s land instead.
This time, he couldn’t sleep because no-one in Eighth Army headquarters could. Damn near nobody in the entire Eighth Army could. Seven hours before he had planned to launch his own major offensive, the North Koreans had attacked all across the line. In a few places, especially in the sector belonging to the 25th Division near Chungju, American troops had been pushed back. A glance at his watch told him it was 0304. Against the Germans, this would never have been the hour of a major offensive. Koreans, or at least Red ones, seemed to be nocturnal.
“What’s the latest from the Lump?” Patton asked. Hill 699 dominated the area assigned to the 24th and 2nd Divisions, which were set to be his offensive’s main striking arm. He had concentrated most of his armour with the 2nd, the tanks waiting a mile behind the infantry. There were a few hundred there now, and it seemed that the North Koreans weren’t aware of them. In two hours, they were set to charge straight into the communist flank. If the Lump fell, the tanks might be seen before they were ready to come out of hiding.
“Seems to be holding.” Colonel Landrum said. “The Reds are throwing a lot of men at it by the looks of things.”
“Good thing that brave sergeant had been on patrol.” Patton said, looking at the enormous map pinned on the wall. “His actions might have saved that whole position, and I want him decorated. Put him down for a Medal of Commendation. A Bronze Star if you can get it.”
“Report from General Keiser, sir.” A radio operator in the next room called out.
“What’s he got?” Patton asked.
“Says he’s heard no reports about an offensive. No green flares. Nothing.” The radio operator replied. “There’s Koreans in front of him, but it looks like our surprise there is complete.”
Patton relaxed. He hadn’t heard news that good all night. Then he had an idea.
“I want you guys to phone Hap and Dean. Find out what their assessments are on the Koreans withdrawing at dawn.”
“Yes, sir!” the radio operator, and another one next to him, said together.
“Why’s that, General?” Landrum asked.
“A few days ago I was at the front.” Patton explained. “This captain, a very fine officer, he said that every time the bastards attacked him at night, they always retreated at dawn. If we can, I say we should attack precisely ten minutes after they pull back. We’ll be ready and they won’t.”
“We’ve already told all the troops to go forward at 0500.” Landrum reminded him. “Even with top notch communications, there’s no way the entire army can be given the new orders in time.”
“Sir, General Gay is saying the Koreans already appear to be retreating on his front.” The radio operator said.
“Good.” Patton said. “Excellent, in fact. Colonel, you’re right, we’ll stick to the plan. Hopefully we catch some of the bastards asleep. And now if you’ll excuse me, I have to be at the front. Abe is in charge here until I return.”
Sergeant Mims had the jeep ready when Patton stepped out of the building. “Where to, sir?”
“Yesan.” Patton said. “Where the tanks are. I have to see the start of this.”
Mims had to drive with only the faintest of headlight beams visible, so he couldn’t drive nearly so fast as he would in the daylight. Patton made sure that blackout was taken seriously. The North Korean air force had mostly been wiped out, but the other day a pair of Il-10s had flown over a patch of front he was visiting at the time. He would not allow his men’s lives to be wasted by carelessness.
They arrived at 0447. Three hundred tanks, hidden behind the lines for the right moment, had rumbled forward to their starting positions. Thirteen minutes later, the artillery began to fire. Tanks began to drive forward, while infantry emerged from their positions. The noise was deafening, but it sounded like victory.

***

September 6, 1950

Douglas MacArthur frowned as he read the report from Korea. “Patton is in Asan, you say. How is he all the way up there? He was under attack two days ago.”
“All across the line.” Doyle Hickey confirmed. Patton quarrelled with Ned Almond every time they spoke, and refused to speak with Willoughby or Whitney at all. Most of MacArthur’s communication with the commander of the Eighth Army went through his deputy chief of staff. “He says that the enemy attacks are ongoing with maximum intensity, and General Coulter has said the same things in the ROK positions.”
“Then what is he doing in Asan?” MacArthur asked again. “The front was at Yesan, ten miles to the south. Are you sure you heard the name correctly?”
“I believe so, sir, but if you would like I can contact the headquarters for confirmation.” Hickey said.
“Do that then.” MacArthur ordered. “If it is not an error, I’d like an explanation immediately.”
Hickey saluted and left, leaving MacArthur with a letter from a Japanese textile mill thanking him for the enormous order of socks that had been placed a few days ago. The Japanese businessman would undoubtedly be doing the best he had ever been after this order – which asked for half a million pairs to be delivered within the next four weeks.
MacArthur thought back to how Patton had insisted upon it more forcefully than anything since that order to clear the Korean road network. The idea to send a pair of socks with the men’s rations each day made a good amount of sense, preventing trenchfoot and keeping men in the fight longer (trenchfoot was no laughing matter either: MacArthur had seen plenty of bad cases back in World War I). Why he thought he needed two million pairs, MacArthur had yet to figure out. He had only allowed it to go through because it would undoubtedly help the occupiers turn Japan into a closer US ally. That, and Uncle Sam was footing the bill.
Here was Hickey again. “General, sir, I just got off the phone with Colonel Landrum. He confirmed that Eighth Army units are in Asan. An armoured regiment of the 2nd Division specifically. He described the manoeuvre as a reconnaissance in force.”
“Very well.” MacArthur said. “I’d like you to get on the phone with Patton. Not one of his staff. Remind him that he’s supposed to be holding the line and preventing the enemy from reinforcing Inchon.”

***

“Sir, I don’t think General MacArthur is too happy with you.” Sergeant Meeks said as he handed Patton the radio.
“Thank you, Sergeant.” Patton said. “This is General Patton.”
“Good afternoon, sir. It’s Hickey.” Doyle Hickey said. “I was just discussing with your chief of staff. Is it correct that you are conducting a reconnaissance in force near Asan?”
“That’s right.” Patton said, watching a dozen tanks clatter along a nearby road. He had three whole tank battalions up here, and an entire division of infantry. “I’m sure General MacArthur would appreciate the extra intelligence we are able to gain from this position.”
“I agree, General. MacArthur would like to remind you of your orders to hold the line and prevent the enemy from reinforcing the Inchon area.” Hickey said.
“That’s exactly what we’re doing.” Patton said. “I can assure MacArthur that our position will not be broken through. There’s at least four, maybe five, Korean divisions up in front of me. My troops have them pinned down. The enemy attack will be repulsed, I give you my word.”
As Meeks put the radio away, Patton got out his field glasses. The enemy advance, at least in 2nd Division’s sector, wasn’t about to be repulsed. It damn well had been repulsed. The North Koreans in this part of the front had run away, although they continued to fight on further south. If not for the horrible weather, a bad storm if not a typhoon, he knew Eighth Army would have pushed a lot further than the ten miles it had managed here. “Let’s go back to the HQ.”
“MacArthur wanted you to slow down?” Meeks asked as they drove back to Taejon.
“MacArthur wanted me to stop, period.” Patton said. “Far as he’s concerned, we’re supposed to sit on our asses for the next ten days. Like hell I’m stopping the offensive now! We’ve got the enemy by the balls!”
Meeks looked at him, not too surprised. “You know sir, you could just tell him you visited the 24th Division tomorrow. They haven’t hardly moved all week.”
Patton thought about that for a moment. “That’s a damned fine idea.”

- BNC
 
Last edited:

marktaha

Banned
Interestingly the pilot's story of Montgomery's plane bet here as Gott, his predecessor had been killed in a plane crash it is understandable that Monty would want a better plane, the RAF had been asked and refused to provide one before the bet was made...
Anyone ever speculate about what if it hadn't been?
 
PART II: HONOUR

CHAPTER 9


While in later clearer vision
I can sense the coppery sweat,
Feel the pikes grow wet and slippery
When our Phalanx, Cyrus met.

September 3, 1950


Sergeant Carl Dodd had volunteered to be on the first shift of guard duty tonight. It set a good example to the men, but that had little to do with his decision. The North Koreans liked to attack at night, usually an hour or two after the evening twilight, when they thought the Americans would be off their guard and unprepared. That wasn’t often the case in Eighth Army any more: as soon as 5th Regiment had linked up with the rest of the 24th Division, it had been rushed into a week’s intensive training, where a major handpicked by Patton had emphasised the need to be on guard at all times. Most of the army had been given a similar crash course. He also thought that an attack was likely. The communists attacked somewhere almost every night, rumours said they were getting even more desperate for a quick victory. Hill 699, now known to everyone as the Lump, was the highest ground in the area and captured just three days earlier. It had ‘target’ written all over it, and Dodd’s company was one of two manning the crest of the hill.
The three hours passed without incident, which was reason itself for Dodd to be nervous. The enemy wasn’t withdrawing from the sector: the quarter moon wasn’t giving a lot of light with all the clouds around, but there was just enough to see the communist lines buzzing with activity up ahead. When he smelt a whiff of the spiced or picked rubbish that Koreans seemed to fill their bellies with at every opportunity, he whispered to the private that was on duty alongside him. “Wake the men.” If his instinct was wrong, he would have to deal with a squad of tired and grumpy soldiers tomorrow.
A minute, maybe a minute and a half later, the North Koreans fired a bunch of green flares into the sky. That was their signal to attack (someone had told him that sometimes the Americans would fire green flares of their own above heavily defended sectors to bait the Koreans into an ambush, an idea he thought to be quite clever). His squad was up and ready, and others nearby were about to be. No Koreans would be taking the Lump tonight. Some were determined (or ordered) to try anyway.
Dodd fired his Garand at about the same time as half his squad did. Nobody aimed at anything, or anyone, in particular. A cloud had just moved to obscure the moon, so aiming wouldn’t improve things much regardless. Better to just shoot towards the north, as many times as you could, and scare the enemy off. A couple of fellows in the squad had taken Russian-made PPShs off dead Koreans a while back. Those things spat out lead like you’d never believe. One of them was firing off to the northwest, so Dodd decided to shift his aim in that direction as well.
As the clouds moved to reveal the moon once more, he could see dozens upon dozens of Koreans scrambling up the Lump. He threw a grenade towards them. One thing was certain: this was going to be a long night.

***

September 4, 1950

Patton was nervous. Almost every time that he was about to launch a major offensive, he felt nervous. For a moment, his mind went back to when he launched is first offensive against the Germans in 1918, when he had been unable to sleep and decided to scout the terrain in no man’s land instead.
This time, he couldn’t sleep because no-one in Eighth Army headquarters could. Damn near nobody in the entire Eighth Army could. Seven hours before he had planned to launch his own major offensive, the North Koreans had attacked all across the line. In a few places, especially in the sector belonging to the 25th Division near Chungju, American troops had been pushed back. A glance at his watch told him it was 0304. Against the Germans, this would never have been the hour of a major offensive. Koreans, or at least Red ones, seemed to be nocturnal.
“What’s the latest from the Lump?” Patton asked. Hill 699 dominated the area assigned to the 24th and 2nd Divisions, which were set to be his offensive’s main striking arm. He had concentrated most of his armour with the 2nd, the tanks waiting a mile behind the infantry. There were a few hundred there now, and it seemed that the North Koreans weren’t aware of them. In two hours, they were set to charge straight into the communist flank. If the Lump fell, the tanks might be seen before they were ready to come out of hiding.
“Seems to be holding.” Colonel Landrum said. “The Reds are throwing a lot of men at it by the looks of things.”
“Good thing that brave sergeant had been on patrol.” Patton said, looking at the enormous map pinned on the wall. “His actions might have saved that whole position, and I want him decorated. Put him down for a Medal of Commendation. A Bronze Star if you can get it.”
“Report from General Keiser, sir.” A radio operator in the next room called out.
“What’s he got?” Patton asked.
“Says he’s heard no reports about an offensive. No green flares. Nothing.” The radio operator replied. “There’s Koreans in front of him, but it looks like our surprise there is complete.”
Patton relaxed. He hadn’t heard news that good all night. Then he had an idea.
“I want you guys to phone Hap and Dean. Find out what their assessments are on the Koreans withdrawing at dawn.”
“Yes, sir!” the radio operator, and another one next to him, said together.
“Why’s that, General?” Landrum asked.
“A few days ago I was at the front.” Patton explained. “This captain, a very fine officer, he said that every time the bastards attacked him at night, they always retreated at dawn. If we can, I say we should attack precisely ten minutes after they pull back. We’ll be ready and they won’t.”
“We’ve already told all the troops to go forward at 0500.” Landrum reminded him. “Even with top notch communications, there’s no way the entire army can be given the new orders in time.”
“Sir, General Gay is saying the Koreans already appear to be retreating on his front.” The radio operator said.
“Good.” Patton said. “Excellent, in fact. Colonel, you’re right, we’ll stick to the plan. Hopefully we catch some of the bastards asleep. And now if you’ll excuse me, I have to be at the front. Abe is in charge here until I return.”
Sergeant Mims had the jeep ready when Patton stepped out of the building. “Where to, sir?”
“Yesan.” Patton said. “Where the tanks are. I have to see the start of this.”
Mims had to drive with only the faintest of headlight beams visible, so he couldn’t drive nearly so fast as he would in the daylight. Patton made sure that blackout was taken seriously. The North Korean air force had mostly been wiped out, but the other day a pair of Il-10s had flown over a patch of front he was visiting at the time. He would not allow his men’s lives to be wasted by carelessness.
They arrived at 0447. Three hundred tanks, hidden behind the lines for the right moment, had rumbled forward to their starting positions. Thirteen minutes later, the artillery began to fire. Tanks began to drive forward, while infantry emerged from their positions. The noise was deafening, but it sounded like victory.

***

September 6, 1950

Douglas MacArthur frowned as he read the report from Korea. “Patton is in Asan, you say. How is he all the way up there? He was under attack two days ago.”
“All across the line.” Doyle Hickey confirmed. Patton quarrelled with Ned Almond every time they spoke, and refused to speak with Willoughby or Whitney at all. Most of MacArthur’s communication with the commander of the Eighth Army went through his deputy chief of staff. “He says that the enemy attacks are ongoing with maximum intensity, and General Coulter has said the same things in the ROK positions.”
“Then what is he doing in Asan?” MacArthur asked again. “The front was at Yesan, ten miles to the south. Are you sure you heard the name correctly?”
“I believe so, sir, but if you would like I can contact the headquarters for confirmation.” Hickey said.
“Do that then.” MacArthur ordered. “If it is not an error, I’d like an explanation immediately.”
Hickey saluted and left, leaving MacArthur with a letter from a Japanese textile mill thanking him for the enormous order of socks that had been placed a few days ago. The Japanese businessman would undoubtedly be doing the best he had ever been after this order – which asked for half a million pairs to be delivered within the next four weeks.
MacArthur thought back to how Patton had insisted upon it more forcefully than anything since that order to clear the Korean road network. The idea to send a pair of socks with the men’s rations each day made a good amount of sense, preventing trenchfoot and keeping men in the fight longer (trenchfoot was no laughing matter either: MacArthur had seen plenty of bad cases back in World War I). Why he thought he needed two million pairs, MacArthur had yet to figure out. He had only allowed it to go through because it would undoubtedly help the occupiers turn Japan into a closer US ally. That, and Uncle Sam was footing the bill.
Here was Hickey again. “General, sir, I just got off the phone with Colonel Landrum. He confirmed that Eighth Army units are in Asan. An armoured regiment of the 2nd Division specifically. He described the manoeuvre as a reconnaissance in force.”
“Very well.” MacArthur said. “I’d like you to get on the phone with Patton. Not one of his staff. Remind him that he’s supposed to be holding the line and preventing the enemy from reinforcing Inchon.”

***

“Sir, I don’t think General MacArthur is too happy with you.” Sergeant Meeks said as he handed Patton the radio.
“Thank you, Sergeant.” Patton said. “This is General Patton.”
“Good afternoon, sir. It’s Hickey.” Doyle Hickey said. “I was just discussing with your chief of staff. Is it correct that you are conducting a reconnaissance in force near Asan?”
“That’s right.” Patton said, watching a dozen tanks clatter along a nearby road. He had three whole tank battalions up here, and an entire division of infantry. “I’m sure General MacArthur would appreciate the extra intelligence we are able to gain from this position.”
“I agree, General. MacArthur would like to remind you of your orders to hold the line and prevent the enemy from reinforcing the Inchon area.” Hickey said.
“That’s exactly what we’re doing.” Patton said. “I can assure MacArthur that our position will not be broken through. There’s at least four, maybe five, Korean divisions up in front of me. My troops have them pinned down. The enemy attack will be repulsed, I give you my word.”
As Meeks put the radio away, Patton got out his field glasses. The enemy advance, at least in 2nd Division’s sector, wasn’t about to be repulsed. It damn well had been repulsed. The North Koreans in this part of the front had run away, although they continued to fight on further south. If not for the horrible weather, a bad storm if not a typhoon, he knew Eighth Army would have pushed a lot further than the ten miles it had managed here. “Let’s go back to the HQ.”
“MacArthur wanted you to slow down?” Meeks asked as they drove back to Taejon.
“MacArthur wanted me to stop, period.” Patton said. “Far as he’s concerned, we’re supposed to sit on our asses for the next ten days. Like hell I’m stopping the offensive now! We’ve got the enemy by the balls!”
Meeks looked at him, not too surprised. “You know sir, you could just tell him you visited the 24th Division tomorrow. They haven’t hardly moved all week.”
Patton thought about that for a moment. “That’s a damned fine idea.”

- BNC

He, he, he....
 
Going by the 1951 map that I've been using to actually write the TL (it's too big to show the whole thing on the forum), there's only one large lateral road between Chungju and Taegu going across the line of the "bulge", that being between Yongju and Hamchang (Hamchang is the same latitude as Chongju for reference), and there's two smaller ones. The terrain is also some well in the Taebaek mountains... not exactly ideal attacking terrain. The UN as a whole has somewhere between 1.5-3:1 advantage in manpower over the NKPA depending on what numbers you use (and let's be real, deep in the mountains is not a likely spot for NK to concentrate their forces), and the NKPA has hardly any logistic ability to exploit a breakthrough. TLDR, not a very favourable place to attack!

OTL the North Koreans had one good opportunity to seriously outflank and defeat the UN, that was the 6th Division striking south and then east between the fall of Taejon and the first clash at Masan (so July 20-Aug 1). Historically they scattered the division to take Mokpo and Sunchon simultaneously, but Walker believed that if they concentrated everything on the Sunchon route and moved quickly enough, Pusan could have fallen (there was only a minimal garrison there at the time). Once that move failed, the UN was always going to have enough troops, artillery, &c to hold the line provided they didn't do anything deliberately stupid.


I wrote in that line of "one Army, one Marine, one Korean" division as a bit of MacArthur-esque 'sound awesome speak' (although the line ended up going to Wright), while keeping the OTL 2 1/2 or so division format. Seeing as it doesn't contradict what I wrote previously, I like your idea better :)
Funnily enough, one of the ROK divisions was called the "Capital Division" (the only named division they had). It has to be them, right?

- BNC

The NKPA was far less road bound then the American Army. The North Koreans have no problem humping up, and down steep hills, and going miles off the roads. The road net East of Chongju was more then adequate for their supply needs, they didn't use an American standard. The hard core of the NKPA had fought in the Chinese 8th Shock Army in the war against Japan, and the Chinese Civil War. They were well versed in small unit, infiltration tactics, and as you point out night fighting. They were inured to incredible hardship, and privation, and lived under ruthless discipline.

The Americans had to relearn all their basic skills the hard way. Their army was made up of poorly trained, and motivated 18-20 year old draftees. Leadership was weak, particularly at the lower levels. The state of their equipment was way below standard. Units were standing at about 2/3 TOE, with new men being rushed in to fill gaps. Again as I said most regiments only had 2 battalions. Unit cohesion was poor. The army that went into Korea was the worst American army to go into a war since 1861.

The ROK's had started the war with a defeat that destroyed their best units, and killed their top leaders. They had poor unit cohesion, low moral, and serious equipment shortages. They desperately needed training, and reequipment. Their units were being rebuilt by just pulling kids off the streets, and farms, and giving them a uniform. Like their Northern counterparts they were used to a lot of physical labor, and could well endure hardship, but they were at a decided disadvantage in training, leadership, and equipment.

At this point the balance of forces are about even, and the UN is holding a broad front of over 150-175 miles, with the East end of the line dangerously close to Pusan. I really can't understand why the NKPA haven't smashed though the overstretched ROK's in the East, forcing a crisis in 8th Army. Your story is very interesting, but it just seems the moment Patton arrives in Korea moral rose, the UN retreat stopped, and everyone learned all new combat skills. The toughening process, and leadership problems that took months of fighting to improve in the OTL were achieved by Patton simply by his presence, and by ordering everyone to stop retreating. That's just not at all realistic. If 8th Army had a tough time hanging on to the much shorter river line of the Pusan Perimeter how are they holding this extended more tenuis one?
 
The NKPA was far less road bound then the American Army. The North Koreans have no problem humping up, and down steep hills, and going miles off the roads. The road net East of Chongju was more then adequate for their supply needs, they didn't use an American standard. The hard core of the NKPA had fought in the Chinese 8th Shock Army in the war against Japan, and the Chinese Civil War. They were well versed in small unit, infiltration tactics, and as you point out night fighting. They were inured to incredible hardship, and privation, and lived under ruthless discipline.

The Americans had to relearn all their basic skills the hard way. Their army was made up of poorly trained, and motivated 18-20 year old draftees. Leadership was weak, particularly at the lower levels. The state of their equipment was way below standard. Units were standing at about 2/3 TOE, with new men being rushed in to fill gaps. Again as I said most regiments only had 2 battalions. Unit cohesion was poor. The army that went into Korea was the worst American army to go into a war since 1861.

The ROK's had started the war with a defeat that destroyed their best units, and killed their top leaders. They had poor unit cohesion, low moral, and serious equipment shortages. They desperately needed training, and reequipment. Their units were being rebuilt by just pulling kids off the streets, and farms, and giving them a uniform. Like their Northern counterparts they were used to a lot of physical labor, and could well endure hardship, but they were at a decided disadvantage in training, leadership, and equipment.

At this point the balance of forces are about even, and the UN is holding a broad front of over 150-175 miles, with the East end of the line dangerously close to Pusan. I really can't understand why the NKPA haven't smashed though the overstretched ROK's in the East, forcing a crisis in 8th Army. Your story is very interesting, but it just seems the moment Patton arrives in Korea moral rose, the UN retreat stopped, and everyone learned all new combat skills. The toughening process, and leadership problems that took months of fighting to improve in the OTL were achieved by Patton simply by his presence, and by ordering everyone to stop retreating. That's just not at all realistic. If 8th Army had a tough time hanging on to the much shorter river line of the Pusan Perimeter how are they holding this extended more tenuis one?
First off, the balance of forces at this point are not "about even", but closer to 2:1 in favour of the UN. Per South to the Naktong, North to the Yalu by Roy E. Appleman, the manpower on September 1 (ie end of chapter 8) is as follows:
All 8th Army: 78762
All ROK: 91696
1st Provisional Marine Bde: 4290
British 27th Bde: 1578
5th Air Force: 3603
Total: 179929
vs
North Korea: 97850, of which around a third are raw recruits, maybe drafted from SK.
I will note that a higher proportion of the UN figure is behind-the-lines type people, but the enormous equipment advantage that the UN holds (air, naval support, everything is motorised &c) probably makes up for it... close to 2:1 seems like a fair assessment IMO.

As for the ROKs, the ones on the east coast are roughly in the same positions they held at this point IOTL (ie. between Yongdok and Pohang), and the terrain there is known to be quite narrow, so it isn't really possible for the NK to put any more troops there than they did IOTL (in early August they set up a position with a heavy cruiser bombarding a given area each day, killing huge numbers of NK troops - this wouldn't have worked if the terrain was such that the NK could just go around it). A concentrated attack on Pusan isn't really viable from that route, at least with the sort of force that would be needed to break through there. Further west, Andong fell ITTL early August same as OTL, and Sangju, thirty miles to the west, was held by the 25th Division until shortly later - the only significant difference is that Patton doesn't retreat from Sangju the way Walker did (I haven't been able to determine an exact date for the retreat, but it is in the first half of August).
Re the formations being over-extended compared with the shorter Pusan line... this either cuts both sides equally or works in favour of the side with better communications and mobility, which is undoubtedly the UN.

The NKPA also wasn't in a particularly good position by the end of August IOTL, per Wikipedia
The KPA had been pushed to its limits and many of the original units were at much reduced strength and effectiveness by the end of August.[56][141] Logistical problems wracked the KPA, with shortages of food, weapons, equipment and replacement soldiers common.[142][143] By late August, the UN command had more combat soldiers in Korea than the KPA, and the UN had near-total superiority over the air and sea.[56] KPA tank losses had been in the hundreds, and it had fewer than 100 tanks by September 1, compared to the Americans' 600 tanks. By the end of August the KPA's only remaining advantage was their initiative, as the KPA troops retained a high morale and enough supplies to allow for a large-scale offensive.[144]
Patton is not the sort of commander who would allow the initiative to be held by the enemy (whereas Walker seems to have been willing enough to) - and he certainly wouldn't with twice the manpower and 6+ times the tanks. ITTL I explain that by having Patton launch a bunch of small offensives in the Kum river area throughout August - if the NKs are responding to him all the time, its going to make their logistic problems worse and reduce their capacity to launch their own offensives.

Regarding the "Patton effect" of improving troop morale, training &c, Patton has been in the exact same position with untrained, ill-disciplined armies before, in North Africa. He would know better than just about anyone else how to fix the situation as quickly as possible (he explains a lot of how to do this in his book). One particular point to note is that, according to War as I Knew It p355, [in II Corps, March 1943] "the situation was evidently very poor. Three of the four divisions had been roughly handled and had an inferiority complex. The other divisions had had very limited battle experience and had nothing but the valor of ignorance. There was no discipline..." - this is all stuff that people often say about the army in Korea. Later on that same page, he notes that it took him a week to restore discipline to the four divisions, and that afterwards they fought "in a magnificent manner". ITTL I've given him five weeks (albeit those are interspersed with conflict with the NKPA) before Eighth Army is performing at anywhere close to the standard of Third Army, and the confidence boosting goes at roughly the same pace as he managed in Africa (concentrating on those units in Taejon first).
This applies at the staff level too: about the time that Mac was meeting with Chiang, Ridgway traveled to Korea and reported concern about Walker's "leadership, lack of force, acceptance of a mediocre staff, and an unsound base organisation", and ended up firing pretty much the entire Eighth Army command when he took over in January. In contrast, no-one is going to have any doubts about Patton's leadership or forcefulness, and Bradley, hardly a fan of Patton, has been quoted saying that Patton was able to get a lot of work out of even a mediocre staff (I put the exact quote in chapter 2).

I don't doubt that Patton has his faults, indeed his inability to be diplomatic is going to come up several more times in the TL, but on the battlefield he strikes me as an excellent general*, and one who had experience with a lot of the problems that plagued Eighth Army. He wouldn't allow any of the nonsense that Walker tolerated, and I expect the difference would be noticed quite quickly (two months after he whipped II Corps into shape, Tunis had fallen).

- BNC

* = Before anyone brings up Metz, Patton says in War as I Knew It that he was dissatisfied with his own performance there ("it wasn't very brilliant"), and he would remember this if he fought any time after 1944. He also notes that despite having insufficient supplies and fighting through the worst flooding the region had seen in eighty years, he still took the position and kept constant offensive pressure on the German armies. If the worst thing he ever did was win a small victory in a battle where several handicaps were working against him, I'd say that qualifies him as a rather good commander.
 
Regarding the "Patton effect" of improving troop morale, training &c, Patton has been in the exact same position with untrained, ill-disciplined armies before, in North Africa. He would know better than just about anyone else how to fix the situation as quickly as possible (he explains a lot of how to do this in his book). One particular point to note is that, according to War as I Knew It p355, [in II Corps, March 1943] "the situation was evidently very poor. Three of the four divisions had been roughly handled and had an inferiority complex. The other divisions had had very limited battle experience and had nothing but the valor of ignorance. There was no discipline..." - this is all stuff that people often say about the army in Korea. Later on that same page, he notes that it took him a week to restore discipline to the four divisions, and that afterwards they fought "in a magnificent manner". ITTL I've given him five weeks (albeit those are interspersed with conflict with the NKPA) before Eighth Army is performing at anywhere close to the standard of Third Army, and the confidence boosting goes at roughly the same pace as he managed in Africa (concentrating on those units in Taejon first).
A couple points, if I may? The troops Patton took over in Africa were of a substantially higher initial quality than the troops that were sent to Korea. In Africa, IIRC, the big problem was poor leadership at almost all levels of the chain of command. In Korea, it was the fact that the soldiers that were sent had no basic soldiering skills to begin with and were having to learn on the fly. Expecting such a large improvement in the performance of Eigth Army in just 5 weeks is really unrealistic. To get the kind of boost you're looking at here would take even Patton at least 6 months. Just for the simple fact that he's having to train everyone from the ground up.

And second, Eighth Army would not even be in the same stratosphere as Third Army, no matter how much training Patton has done over the last few weeks. Third Army spent years training for combat before being committed to the fight in France. Eighth Army was a scratch force thrown together from whatever was available at the time.

Don't get me wrong, I'm really enjoying your story and have no intention of stopping. But I think you're buffing the UN forces just a bit much.
 
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marathag

Banned
While Elan/Morale whatever you call it, is important.
With the Drive on Singapore, you had IJA platoons that were able to get British and Indian Regiments to bugout from prepared positions, just from appearing on a flank.

Same happened in Korea.
Stop the running, and the DPRK troops find that their shoestring logistics won't hold up.
 
BTW, I am uncertain that this has been brought up, but what about M46 and M47 tanks? IOTL they (and the M48) were all named after Patton, but with him still alive and around, what name, if any are they going to carry? This also extends to M41 tank, Walker is still alive as well, and that means that they are going to need a different name too?

I have given it some thought, and maybe the M46-47-48 models get named Pershing? The M26 was after all basis from which these tanks were developed, and it sounds reasonable enough TBH. As for the M41 light tank, maybe Sheridan would be a good name, it is a light tank after all, so naming it after a ACW cav commander does make some sense, with Buford being a decent option as well IMHO.

I know such info would have no influence on the TL, but it would be nice to know.
 
A couple points, if I may? The troops Patton took over in Africa were of a substantially higher initial quality than the troops that were sent to Korea. In Africa, IIRC, the big problem was poor leadership at almost all levels of the chain of command. In Korea, it was the fact that the soldiers that were sent had no basic soldiering skills to begin with and were having to learn on the fly. Expecting such a large improvement in the performance of Eigth Army in just 5 weeks is really unrealistic. To get the kind of boost you're looking at here would take even Patton at least 6 months. Just for the simple fact that he's having to train everyone from the ground up.

And second, Eighth Army would not even be in the same stratosphere as Third Army, no matter how much training Patton has done over the last few weeks. Third Army spent years training for combat before being committed to the fight in France. Eighth Army was a scratch force thrown together from whatever was available at the time.

Don't get me wrong, I'm really enjoying your story and have no intention of stopping. But I think you're buffing the UN forces just a bit much.
That's fair :)

While Elan/Morale whatever you call it, is important.
With the Drive on Singapore, you had IJA platoons that were able to get British and Indian Regiments to bugout from prepared positions, just from appearing on a flank.

Same happened in Korea.
Stop the running, and the DPRK troops find that their shoestring logistics won't hold up.
Pretty much sums up how I've been thinking :)
Things like morale and training can't be quantified, so the best I can do is guess at what Patton could do. IOTL once the UN forces reached the Naktong line and decided to make a stand there, they were able to halt the NK offensives almost immediately, and only had to give up a minimum of ground in the following six weeks. That was only a week and a half after the July 17 date I've given for introducing Patton to the theatre, so it isn't like Eighth Army completely lacked the capacity to do so or anything.
The positions on the map are the result of Patton launching attacks in the sector for a good month after the NKs are halted at Taejon (and I explained that a few pages back) - it works out to be about a mile per day, which is actually rather slow for a force with the sort of superiority that the UN had.

All that said, I freely admit I could be off with Patton's capabilities... if I am, well it's all for a good story anyway :) (And technically the POD for TTL is June 1945, not July 1950, so if I wanted to I could just say Eighth Army isn't coming from quite as terrible a position).

BTW, I am uncertain that this has been brought up, but what about M46 and M47 tanks? IOTL they (and the M48) were all named after Patton, but with him still alive and around, what name, if any are they going to carry? This also extends to M41 tank, Walker is still alive as well, and that means that they are going to need a different name too?

I have given it some thought, and maybe the M46-47-48 models get named Pershing? The M26 was after all basis from which these tanks were developed, and it sounds reasonable enough TBH. As for the M41 light tank, maybe Sheridan would be a good name, it is a light tank after all, so naming it after a ACW cav commander does make some sense, with Buford being a decent option as well IMHO.

I know such info would have no influence on the TL, but it would be nice to know.
M41 was known as the 'Little Bulldog' even before Walker's death, so it just keeps that name and they don't attach Walker to it.
The M46 will be addressed in the next update. I won't spoil it now, except to say it won't be called Pershing. I suspect that's what it would actually get called, but it is easier for me to sometimes write "Pershing tanks" into the story and I don't want that causing confusion.
M47 I haven't decided on yet - it didn't enter service until 1951 so I've got a while to come up with something (suggestions are welcome!)

***

Real life stuff means I won't be able to keep posting updates daily any more the way I have been :( Don't worry, the TL is not forgotten, it's just that 2000 words a day is hard to do when you've got other stuff to think about!

- BNC
 
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