Patton in Korea/MacArthur in the White House
- Thread starter BiteNibbleChomp
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I can understand the reaction towards MacArthur. Truman already hated him years before the war started. Back in the aftermath of the Japanese surrender Truman's administration had discreetly asked MacArthur to request only a small amount of troops for the occupation. This was because Truman wanted to be able to end the draft, but he wanted to be able to blame it on someone else (MacArthur) if something happened in the future that made it look like a bad decision (like Korea). MacArthur realized what was going on, so he intentionally sent out his official public request asking for far more troops than Truman wanted him to, and Truman hated him ever since. Idk if that was the sole reason that made Truman not like him, but it was the first significant issue discussed in regards to their relationship in a MacArthur biography I read.
Patton on the other hand makes less sense here. I feel like Truman might be upset at him for the way he's acted diplomatically, but I don't think he'd give a damn about Patton bending the rules around the order MacArthur sent him. In fact he might secretly be happy he took some spotlight off of MacArthur.
MacArthur was also a glory hound and often disobeyed or ignored orders that he disliked. Truman tolerated this because of MacArthur's good press. But MacArthur crossed the line when he began advocating for the use of nuclear weapons in Korea against the Chinese. Truman ordered him to stop and MacArthur refused. Heck, if I remember correctly, General MacArthur even tried to have nuclear weapons based in Korea to be used against the Chinese. This was outrageous as only the President had the authority to move and deploy nuclear weapons. Naturally, Truman was outraged and had him sacked.
This isn't really accurate. MacArthur didn't advocate for nuclear weapons to be used against the Chinese, and that has nothing to do with why he was fired. He was fired because he signed a letter criticizing the Truman administration's policy in Korea. Thats clearly insubordination and thats what got him fired, but it had nothing to do with nuclear weapons. The fact is that MacArthur never once requested to use nuclear weapons in Korea. I believe it was Truman himself who later started that rumor, but he never brought forth any evidence. MacArthur then demanded that Truman retract his claim and Truman did, later stating that it was his opinion that MacArthur wanted to use nukes but that he had nothing to prove this.
So yeah, MacArthur didn't ever want to nuke the Chinese (in either China or Korea)
The 'Pyongyang' quote was actually meant as a joke by Patton... all he's doing there is ensuring that the British troops are deployed on the 38 line so they can be the first to move once he gets permission to go north. I doubt he'd risk his career just to get a single brigade a few miles north of the line
Maybe that letter from Beatrice convinced him that Patton had somehow changed a lot since 1945?Well... What exactly did Truman thought was going to happen when he appointed both MacArthur and Patton to the same theatre?
And Washington isn't happy about MacArthur insisting an incredibly risky operation be allowed to go ahead, only for it to be completely unnecessary and thereby making everyone look foolish. Truman didn't think much of MacArthur to begin with, after it he's going to understandably be quite annoyed.
Patton... well he has spent the last two months, possibly unintentionally, annoying just about everyone that isn't a part of 8th Army staff, and already has a reputation (IMO undeserved) for going ahead and doing whatever he feels like, orders be damned. Truman's going to be quite concerned that that could lead to the 38th parallel being crossed in strength without authorisation.
Perhaps, but if he looks to be ignoring orders from MacArthur, what's to say he won't ignore orders from Truman as well?
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One can only assume she used some kind of written hypnosisMaybe that letter from Beatrice convinced him that Patton had somehow changed a lot since 1945?
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Go Patton! This time US Forces might really be home for Christmas, unless Mao or uncle Joe decides to commit some forces against Patton
The casualties, and danger to 8th Army was far more serious in the OTL, and Truman authorized the move into NK. This TL has been almost a cake walk. The NKPA seems to be a pushover. Overrunning NK in 2- 3 weeks seems likely. The Chinese would have almost no time to react, things are falling apart so quickly. They might not decide to intervene at all.
It is my understanding that China does not want any more powerful nations on it border. Is it possible that they would intervene to setup a buffer zone say 50 miles in along some mountain ridges? I know that in the original timeline, the US ignored the warning sent by China. Maybe this time, the Chinese dig in and make it clear that they are not going any further.
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I wonder how the Incheon landing will be justified and remembered? Will it lead to expressions like "As foolish as Incheon" to enter the vocabulary?
marathag
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Warning were too broad, like
'Capitalist running dogs should not be in Asia'
Not ' Approach the Yalu and we will attack'
I rather see that as unlikely, China was committed to intervening in the conflict the moment American Forces cross the 38th parallel. The moment that Mao was assured of Soviet support for China's intervention in Korea, he was committed.
That isn't correct. The Chinese vacillated for days, before making the final decision. Stalin almost despaired that his plan had failed, when the Chinese finally decided they couldn't let down their Korean comrades, and face the loss of prestige. The Chinese never thought the Americans would invade China. The decision came down to a 24 hour period, it was that close. They only made their finale decision to intervene when Stalin promised them the Soviet air force would provide them with aircover. Stalin suckered them by telling them the aircover wouldn't be provided immediately, but would take a few weeks to move air units into the region. Of course Stalin never came though with the air support. The closest he came was Soviet Air Force MIG-15's over the Yalu, not flying cover over Chinese ground troops. Stalin had played both the North Koreans, and Chinese for fools.
If they did that the history of the last 70 years would be a lot happier. The DPRK would be a rump State confined to the mountains in the far north, and all the major populated areas of Korea would be in the hands of the ROK. The Chinese understood that, so they set about "Liberating" NK, and then pushed into the South. In for a penny, in for a pound.
Until the 1990s ROK and DPRK competed for worst Korea for ordinary Koreans. Where the border is won’t really change Chaebol or nomenklatura brutality against Korean workers. And until 1990 the SORK manufacturing industry won’t have achieved highest rate of profit standards, nor will the Soviet aid have dried up. The borders position won’t stop the cluster fuck.
There’s one exception which is the native workerists winning the KWP in fight with northern and southern working class assistance. But that’s an earlier pod. A successful DPRK unification might get you chiller Soviet-faction nomenklatura ousting the Kimmites. Again not this POD.
There’s one exception which is the native workerists winning the KWP in fight with northern and southern working class assistance. But that’s an earlier pod. A successful DPRK unification might get you chiller Soviet-faction nomenklatura ousting the Kimmites. Again not this POD.
IIRC correctly the Chinese warnings were quite explicit. Problem was they were delivered via the Indian Government as the Chinese had no direct diplomatic representation with the reactionary US Government.
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The PRC Government had already informed the Indian Government to pass on the the warning which it did. The Americans didn't believe the Indian ambassador to be a reliable man.
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