Patton in Korea: A TL

I don't think that story about Patton and Goering having a breakfast is accurate considering it was troops from the 36th Infantry Division of the 7th Army in the 6th Army Group that captured Goering in Western Austria, not troops from the 3rd Army in the 12th Army Group that was advancing into Bohemia scores of kilometers away. Here's a story from the pilot who flew Goering from Kitzbuhel to 7th Army HQ in Augsburg:


As well as an article from the Houston Chronicle that describes the capture by the Texas (36th) ID:

Zero indication Patton ever met Goering.
 
I read the ROK official history (revised) and translated into English originally authored by the Korean Institute of Military History. Three vols. Classic mid west US university project by “the” guy who does ROK / DPRK.

The lack of detail in the minds of the US characters indicates that access to such resources might be limited. For the early war where the NKPA was relevant I recommend it
 
Blackjack Pershing was our first and only..
It gets a little convoluted. In 1799 Congress created the rank "General of the Armies" which was naturally awarded to George Washington. It is reported that Washington did not wear a military uniform after he retired as President. IN 1866 Congress authorized the title "General of the Army" which was naturally awarded to Grant. He wore a 4 star insignia prior to his presidential election. After Grant became U.S. president, he was succeeded as General of the Army by William T. Sherman, effective 4 March 1869. In 1872, Sherman ordered the insignia changed to two stars, with the coat of arms of the United States in between. For a few months in 1885, as he was dying, Grant was accorded a special honor and his rank was restored by Congressional legislation. By an Act of Congress on 1 June 1888, the grade was conferred upon Philip Sheridan, who by then was in failing health. The rank of General of the Army ceased to exist with Sheridan's death on 5 August 1888. In 1919 Congress again authorized the title "General of the Armies." Pershing was appointed September 3, 1919. He continued to wear a 4 star insignia. When Congress authorized the 5 star ranks General of the Army and Fleet Admiral the law did not specifically deal with Pershing who in retirement continued to wear 4 stars. Secretary of War Stinson tried to address this issue "It appears the intent of the Army was to make the General of the Armies senior in grade to the General of the Army. I have advised Congress that the War Department concurs in such proposed action." This lead to the design 6 star insignia although I do not believe Pershing ever wore it. Finally in January 1976 Congress got involved again passing a law declaring Washington "General of the Armies" with "rank and precedence over all other grades of the Army, past or present".
 
Having listened to some of my friends that were tread heads in the Army, they told me they made reference to calling the beasts " YOU STUPID MOTHERF****** PIECE OF TRASH" or words to that affect.
My neighbor used to curse his then new Chevy Covair, saying why didn't learn his lesson with fan belts with M26 in Korea, and never buy a vehicle that had that kind of cooling setup.
 
It gets a little convoluted. In 1799 Congress created the rank "General of the Armies" which was naturally awarded to George Washington. It is reported that Washington did not wear a military uniform after he retired as President. IN 1866 Congress authorized the title "General of the Army" which was naturally awarded to Grant. He wore a 4 star insignia prior to his presidential election. After Grant became U.S. president, he was succeeded as General of the Army by William T. Sherman, effective 4 March 1869. In 1872, Sherman ordered the insignia changed to two stars, with the coat of arms of the United States in between. For a few months in 1885, as he was dying, Grant was accorded a special honor and his rank was restored by Congressional legislation. By an Act of Congress on 1 June 1888, the grade was conferred upon Philip Sheridan, who by then was in failing health. The rank of General of the Army ceased to exist with Sheridan's death on 5 August 1888. In 1919 Congress again authorized the title "General of the Armies." Pershing was appointed September 3, 1919. He continued to wear a 4 star insignia. When Congress authorized the 5 star ranks General of the Army and Fleet Admiral the law did not specifically deal with Pershing who in retirement continued to wear 4 stars. Secretary of War Stinson tried to address this issue "It appears the intent of the Army was to make the General of the Armies senior in grade to the General of the Army. I have advised Congress that the War Department concurs in such proposed action." This lead to the design 6 star insignia although I do not believe Pershing ever wore it. Finally in January 1976 Congress got involved again passing a law declaring Washington "General of the Armies" with "rank and precedence over all other grades of the Army, past or present".
Yep, when I was in the Army the accepted tradition was that Washington and Pershing were the only two 6 Stars and that Washington by Act of Congress was senior to Pershing. Of course, just because something is tradition doesn't make it true but it seems to be reasonably accurate (at least in this specific case).
 
I read the ROK official history (revised) and translated into English originally authored by the Korean Institute of Military History. Three vols. Classic mid west US university project by “the” guy who does ROK / DPRK.

The lack of detail in the minds of the US characters indicates that access to such resources might be limited. For the early war where the NKPA was relevant I recommend it
I looked it up, couldn't find it on JSTOR and it's far too expensive on Amazon (not to mention I've probably spent enough money on books for this TL anyway!). Thanks for letting me know about it anyway :)

Patton won't have a lot of focus on the ROKs anymore though... he pretty much had to be given a restraining order on their units just to prevent him from doing anything else stupid!

- BNC
 
I’ll look up a full cite so you can ILL or borrow it if it’s near. Someone in your postal district might send you a copy.
 
Zero indication Patton ever met Goering.

The American warden of the prison, Col. Robert C. Andrus, was a
martinet unimpressed with Göring's previous position which had
prompted Gen. George S. Patton to have a much-criticized champagne
breakfast with the fallen Nazi leader that made banner headlines
around the world.


General Carl Spaatz Commander of USAAF Strategic Air Forces Europe also had a friendly meeting with Goering. They throw a bit of a party for him. Eisenhower forbid any of that kind of fraternization. The Nazi leaders were to be treated as war criminals, not defeated peers.
 
The American warden of the prison, Col. Robert C. Andrus, was a
martinet unimpressed with Göring's previous position which had
prompted Gen. George S. Patton to have a much-criticized champagne
breakfast with the fallen Nazi leader that made banner headlines
around the world.


General Carl Spaatz Commander of USAAF Strategic Air Forces Europe also had a friendly meeting with Goering. They throw a bit of a party for him. Eisenhower forbid any of that kind of fraternization. The Nazi leaders were to be treated as war criminals, not defeated peers.
I've spent the last 30 minutes looking and outside that video you posted I have found no source for this at all other then what your saying. No headlines, no newspaper articles, no nothing, so unless you actually have a source for this stop trying to push it.
 

chankljp

Donor
I've spent the last 30 minutes looking and outside that video you posted I have found no source for this at all other then what your saying. No headlines, no newspaper articles, no nothing, so unless you actually have a source for this stop trying to push it.
I was able to find one primary source for the alleged champagne breakfast that Patton had with Goering:


Considering that this claim was made by Albert Speer of all people, its validity might be questionable.
 
I was able to find one primary source for the alleged champagne breakfast that Patton had with Goering:


Considering that this claim was made by Albert Speer of all people, its validity might be questionable.
Yeah if Speer is the only one making the claim it smells worse then the Nazi economic situation pre-war.
 
Burton C Andrus Didn't care for some of his rules like making them sleep on their backs with their hands outside the sheets.
 
I can’t wait to see how Patton will react to China’s entry into the Korean War. It will be a nasty shock to General Patton. In RL, China’s entry was a nasty shock to the American lead UN Force despite all the warnings as they did not expect that China would actually enter the war. And they were really shocked by how effective the Chinese troops were.
 
I've spent the last 30 minutes looking and outside that video you posted I have found no source for this at all other then what your saying. No headlines, no newspaper articles, no nothing, so unless you actually have a source for this stop trying to push it.

As I said I first read about it over 30 years ago, I believe it was in one of Albert Speers books. I'll have to check if it's discussed in a bio of Eisenhower. I posted a video, and a reference to it. It's not a well know event, but because it's hard to find on line doesn't mean it didn't happen. I don't understand why it seems so hard to believe? Considering Patton's ideas does it seem that out of character? No one seems to think it was strange that Carl Spaatz, and other American Generals were overly friendly to Goering? Also no one seems to think much about the vial racist, and anti Semitic thoughts expressed in Patton diary.

There's a lot of romantic haze around Patton, most people think he was the guy George C. Scott played in the movie. The character in that great movie was a sanitized version of the man. He's also the subject of many Right Wing conspiracy theories, involving Communists, and the ubiquitous Jews. He's been used as a Right Wing Icon, and an anti Communist visionary, who was trying to save Western Civilization from the "Mongoloid Russians" If Patton had lived to write his Memoirs he would have lashed out at everyone around him in WWII. He was a man with a lot of scores to settle. He would have only damaged his own reputation. Today he'd be remembered more like a Curtis LeMay, rather then the larger then life figure we think we know.
 
I was able to find one primary source for the alleged champagne breakfast that Patton had with Goering:


Considering that this claim was made by Albert Speer of all people, its validity might be questionable.
Thank you. Why would Speer make that up? There's nothing self serving about it. Speer was interested in saving his neck, and building a reputation as a technocrat, and a reluctant Nazi who helped save Germany. It's also consistent with the other American Generals playing court with Goering.
 
He made up lots of crap. "See, even American heroes fraternized with these Nazis that I fraternized with" is not a pointless lie.

Your youtube video does not seem like the sort of incontrovertible fact that the OP is forced to accept as gospel truth for timeline purposes. To me it seems like you are hijacking the thread for a hobby horse.

Its OK if you don't like Patton. Its OK if the OP does.
 
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He made up lots of crap. "See, even American heroes fraternized with these Nazis that I fraternized with' doesn't seem like a pointless lie.

This doesn't seem like the sort of incontrovertible fact that the OP is forced to accept as gospel truth for timeline purposes, and you are hijacking the thread for a hobby horse. So what if you don't like Patton?
Exactly, Speer made up plenty of shit trying to paint himself in the best possible light. The fact the he seems to be the only source of this meeting also lends major doubts to its reliability.
 
@BelisariusII I've actually enjoyed your skepticism and the OP's responses. It has made for a better timeline. This one you are taking too far.
 
Exactly, Speer made up plenty of shit trying to paint himself in the best possible light. The fact the he seems to be the only source of this meeting also lends major doubts to its reliability.
And Speer can't even be a source for the rest of the story, which is that Eisenhower reprimanded Patton for it. If there are other sources on the alleged incident, I'd believe it, it doesn't seem impossible to me. But I'm not going to believe it on Speer's say-so.
 
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