Partition and the Irish Civil War

Does the IRA/Sinn Fein still split into warring factions?

  • Yes, the Irish Civil War would still happen.

    Votes: 15 57.7%
  • No, but it would take a federal dominion to prevent civil war in Ulster.

    Votes: 2 7.7%
  • No, but Ulster would be on fire no matter what.

    Votes: 8 30.8%
  • Other (please explain in comments).

    Votes: 1 3.8%

  • Total voters
    26
In OTL the anti-treaty IRA objected to both the partitioning of the island and the oath of allegiance members of the Oireachtas would have to take to the crown. If there were a dominion covering the whole island (could be federal or unitary) would we still see a war between pro-treaty and anti-treaty factions of the IRA/Sinn Fein?
 
By 1919 there were only two feasible options. Partition or continued British rule (a fact Michael Collins understood very well). No Home Rule and certainly no fully united Ireland.
And OTL the British had extensive global commitments after the Armistice , all of which made Ireland a side show to London. A dominion of Ireland would lead to a multi sidd civil war, which would vey conveniently start just as the rest of the Empire and the world was calming down.. This would lead to Ireland being flooded with troops, the insurgency broken (in both North and South) and a very punitive settlement being made, which would of course blow up in 50 years....
 
In OTL the anti-treaty IRA objected to both the partitioning of the island and the oath of allegiance members of the Oireachtas would have to take to the crown. If there were a dominion covering the whole island (could be federal or unitary) would we still see a war between pro-treaty and anti-treaty factions of the IRA/Sinn Fein?
They also objected to the failure to declare a Republic, however that was a Red Line for the U.K. so I can’t see a way to avoid some sort of civil war. Moreover by the time of the Treaty NI is already a thing and the U.K. isn’t going to force it into the Free State. So much like OTL I see NI being on fire as sectarian violence continues after Partition and some sort of Civil War in the Free State as well.
 
It was always going to be a mess, you couldn't outfox the sleaze of the ever so polite genocidal bastards that ran the Empire, they had all the military power, propaganda and ruthlessness.
 
It was always going to be a mess, you couldn't outfox the sleaze of the ever so polite genocidal bastards that ran the Empire, they had all the military power, propaganda and ruthlessness.
I don’t think anyone lacked for ruthlessness, or for propaganda. For that matter examples of sleaze seem pretty universal as well.

You might want to qualify he genocidal part, as for all the passion in Irish history at this point I have not heard accusations of genocide applied to any side in the war in question before.
 
I don’t think anyone lacked for ruthlessness, or for propaganda. For that matter examples of sleaze seem pretty universal as well.

You might want to qualify he genocidal part, as for all the passion in Irish history at this point I have not heard accusations of genocide applied to any side in the war in question before.
Some people believe the Famine constitutes a genocide. I'm not sure about it either way.
 
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In OTL the anti-treaty IRA objected to both the partitioning of the island and the oath of allegiance members of the Oireachtas would have to take to the crown. If there were a dominion covering the whole island (could be federal or unitary) would we still see a war between pro-treaty and anti-treaty factions of the IRA/Sinn Fein?
Absolutely. It'd probably be worse than OTL too by virtue of Anti-Treaty being more popular.
 
I don’t think anyone lacked for ruthlessness, or for propaganda. For that matter examples of sleaze seem pretty universal as well.

You might want to qualify he genocidal part, as for all the passion in Irish history at this point I have not heard accusations of genocide applied to any side in the war in question before.
Maybe it wasn't the plan, but it sure was convenient for the British Empire, and once the opportunity was there they did nothing to alleviate the suffering, after all, less natives, easier to control.
 
and once the opportunity was there they did nothing to alleviate the suffering,
British government response was inadequate, possibly neglectful, even inept. Hamstrung by an ideological commitment to free trade policies and, sometimes, a callous view of the Irish. But it was not nonexistent. Three million people were fed at soup kitchens in 1847, and 8 million pounds (in income value equivalent to 9.6 Billion today) was spent on government relief, with more collected privately (not all from Britain). Queen Victoria was the largest single donator to the relief with a 2000 pound (2.5 million today) donation and two "Queens letters" calling for aid for Ireland that between them raised 200,000 pounds (240 million).

Let it not be said that Britain did enough to relieve Ireland in the famine, but to say they did nothing is not accurate. Nor indeed is it really relevant to the Irish war of independence,
 
British government response was inadequate, possibly neglectful, even inept. Hamstrung by an ideological commitment to free trade policies and, sometimes, a callous view of the Irish. But it was not nonexistent. Three million people were fed at soup kitchens in 1847, and 8 million pounds (in income value equivalent to 9.6 Billion today) was spent on government relief, with more collected privately (not all from Britain). Queen Victoria was the largest single donator to the relief with a 2000 pound (2.5 million today) donation and two "Queens letters" calling for aid for Ireland that between them raised 200,000 pounds (240 million).

Let it not be said that Britain did enough to relieve Ireland in the famine, but to say they did nothing is not accurate. Nor indeed is it really relevant to the Irish war of independence,
You're right, the Famine doesn't affect the question on the Civil War. But from everything I've read over the years the British did the minimum in the 1840/1850s, after all the carnage was only across the Irish Sea from them, death and emigration made the island easier to control, they didn't need to set up concentration camps like during the Boer War, would have been harder to hide. I admit my bias, I consider the British Empire as evil as the Tsar/Stalin in its actions over the centuries, just with much better propaganda.
 
You're right, the Famine doesn't affect the question on the Civil War. But from everything I've read over the years the British did the minimum in the 1840/1850s, after all the carnage was only across the Irish Sea from them, death and emigration made the island easier to control, they didn't need to set up concentration camps like during the Boer War, would have been harder to hide. I admit my bias, I consider the British Empire as evil as the Tsar/Stalin in its actions over the centuries, just with much better propaganda.
Can you name a single Empire that wasn’t terrible? But the Famine isn’t really relevant to the OP. That being said by 1920-22, you can see how British handling had changed as the level of force deployed against the IRA was far less than what they could use and did in other areas of the Empire.
 
Can you name a single Empire that wasn’t terrible? But the Famine isn’t really relevant to the OP. That being said by 1920-22, you can see how British handling had changed as the level of force deployed against the IRA was far less than what they could use and did in other areas of the Empire.
So many poor bastards died for nothing in the trenches probably helped the Irish break from Britain as much as fighting them, 1920s were tumultuous all over Great Britain, I'm sure there was no support for the amount of troops needed to crush the uprising.
 
So many poor bastards died for nothing in the trenches probably helped the Irish break from Britain as much as fighting them, 1920s were tumultuous all over Great Britain, I'm sure there was no support for the amount of troops needed to crush the uprising.
Its more complicated than just the state of GB though that played a part, the major issue was the U.K. couldn’t accept that a “Home Nation” was in open revolt, so never used the full scope of their capabilities. I mean there’s a reason why the RIC was first backed by the Black and Tans and Auxiliaries, rather than the British Army being used, and when the British Army/RAF/RN were involved they tended to hit the IRA hard (not helped by some of Devs ideas of course). Added to that there was plenty of diplomatic pressure on them from not only the US but also the Dominions to find a peaceful solution of some sort to the War.
 
Added to that, there was the fact that the British government & a majority of MPs had already accepted the need for some sort of 'Home Rule' arrangement before the outbreak of WW1, although that then got put on hold "for the duration".
 
In OTL the anti-treaty IRA objected to both the partitioning of the island and the oath of allegiance members of the Oireachtas would have to take to the crown. If there were a dominion covering the whole island (could be federal or unitary) would we still see a war between pro-treaty and anti-treaty factions of the IRA/Sinn Fein?
**smiles**

That, at its core, was basically Southern Ireland and the later Irish Free State IOTL - not to mention, for moderate nationalists, their ultimate interpretation of Home Rule, as the beginning of a gradual process towards independence, not just mere autonomy as the British interpretation of Home Rule was (hence talk of Home Rule All Round and extending it to Scotland and, if Cymru Fydd was still strong enough to be a viable force, Wales as well). Hence why Unionists had such a strong opinion against Home Rule from the start The Free State (= Dominion status) was the compromise solution between Irish aspirations for independence (and hence a change from pre-1916 attitudes) and British concerns about having the island fall out of its orbit. It took a very long time for attitudes from the politicians on both sides of the Irish Sea to match reality.

So, I would assume it would be a mix of this:
They also objected to the failure to declare a Republic, however that was a Red Line for the U.K. so I can’t see a way to avoid some sort of civil war. Moreover by the time of the Treaty NI is already a thing and the U.K. isn’t going to force it into the Free State. So much like OTL I see NI being on fire as sectarian violence continues after Partition and some sort of Civil War in the Free State as well.
and trying to make the Third Home Rule Bill work (even if it meant amending it to federalizing Ireland - which would be a major departure from attitudes at the time, since a unitary Home Rule entity would be pretty unwieldly), up until the point where it would no longer be possible (IOW, if the 1920 Act/Fourth Home Rule Bill was just a simple amendment to what already existed and not reinventing the wheel, even if Northern Ireland was still carved out as IOTL) - and then building on that to address Scotland, in particular (probably to forestall the advance of Red Clydeside).
 
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