Papal-American War

Pope Pius IX supported the Confederacy in the Civil War. He was the only head of state to refer to Jefferson Davis as the president of a country and he recognized the Confederacy as a nation. Robert E. Lee refered to the Vatican as the South's only friend. When Davis was in prison, the pope sent an autographed picture of himself and had nuns ask for his release.

The pope's interactions with the rebels pissed off Lincoln. Because the pope controled a country at the time, what would have happened if the United States declared war on the Papal States?
 
This idea deserves the appellation that your username is. Beyond that, I think a declaration of war would at most be symbolic, and would never happen, because the North wouldn't want to piss off Northern Catholics.
 
I don't think the United States would care too much. You might see a lot of Catholics have second thoughts on serving the armies of a nation technically at war with the Pope and in turn you might have a lot of anti-Catholic persecution.
 
I've never heard of this before and am extremely curious. The issue of slavery would seem to hamper any relations between the CSA and the Papal States. The Church officially condemned slavery many many times before the Civil War. I know that Jefferson Davis sent a delegate, but wasn't aware the relationship went any further.

Do you by chance have a source for this information? Right now, I am only getting a blog of questionable legitimacy.
 
Pope Pius IX supported the Confederacy in the Civil War. He was the only head of state to refer to Jefferson Davis as the president of a country and he recognized the Confederacy as a nation. Robert E. Lee refered to the Vatican as the South's only friend. When Davis was in prison, the pope sent an autographed picture of himself and had nuns ask for his release.

Source? All I remember hearing about is the Pope addressing Davis as "President" in a letter and the Confederate government admitting that didn't amount to recognition. Plus, didn't the Roman Catholic Church officially oppose slavery?
 
I've never heard of this before and am extremely curious. The issue of slavery would seem to hamper any relations between the CSA and the Papal States. The Church officially condemned slavery many many times before the Civil War. I know that Jefferson Davis sent a delegate, but wasn't aware the relationship went any further.

Do you by chance have a source for this information? Right now, I am only getting a blog of questionable legitimacy.

The Rebellion record: a diary of American events, with documents ..., Volume 4, which shows the letters send between Jefferson Davis and the pope.
http://books.google.com/books?id=YmsFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA509&dq=pope+pius+ix+confederacy&hl=en&ei=ZUZPTZKvONDqgQe-nODdDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false

The American Catholic Historical Researches, Volume 19, proves the picture from the pope send to Davis.
http://books.google.com/books?id=bY...&resnum=2&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

But yeah, the pope personally seemed to recognize them, but Vatican did not.
 

Japhy

Banned
As Lincoln noted when Seward wanted war with the British, "One War at a time".

War here is not too likely, the Union and the Papal States lack power projection to do much of anything to each other. Hell the viability of the Papal States at this point was only due to the fact that Napoleon III was propping it up with troops. Lincoln didn't go to war with Britain after Trent, or for it's building and aiding of the Confederate commerce raiders, he didn't go to war with Napoleon III for breaking the Monroe Doctrine. And neither of those theoretical wars were going to cost Lincoln the near-constant stream of Irish troops that were being recruited right off the docks every day.

That said, you might see a Papal-American Conflict but only if the War starts with France first. Napoleon III's goal of a Franco-Austrian Alliance could be achieved by having Maximilian being under the threat of both Juarez and Lincoln, and if the two of them in an alliance go to war together, there's a chance they'll pressure their dependency in Rome to come along for the ride.
 
this is very interesting. especially since much of the south was more anti-catholic than the north.

i'm also curious what my irish immigrant ancestors who settled down in tennessee roundabouts 1860 would thought about this, if they knew at all.
 
I apologize for any errors.

Alright, I did some reading. Before I begin however, I must state that much of the relationship between the Confederacy and the Papal State seems to be shrouded in uncertainty. There is a lot of ambiguity regarding the intentions Pope Pius IX so I would refrain from jumping to the conclusion that he 'supported the Confederacy'. It seems to me that the Pope was showing more sympathy toward Jefferson rather than the nation.

It should be noted that the Vatican as well as Europe were keeping an eye on the United States during this period. Jefferson Davis, being relatively friendly to Catholics and being a former Senator from a state with historic Catholic ties, would have been on the Pope's radar. Like Lincoln, he was also very vocal in opposing the Know Nothings which would have earned the Pope's admiration. However, there is a big difference in liking a man and liking the nation he represents.


As stated above, there are quite a few problems which would strain the relationship between the Confederacy and the Vatican. Namely, the anti-Catholic sentiment in parts of the South during this period, the Church's rejection of slavery and the sheer difference in government organization. If the Pope for somehow manages to overcome the above issues, he cannot really do anything other than make statements. The Pope's temporal power was on a sharp decline and the state was only viable because of Napoleon III. The only way a Papal-American war is if France intervenes. Even then, the Papal States will probably just be dragged along by France.


That said, I still do find the idea of a Papal-American War interesting. I am just unsure if it is likely at this point in time.
 
On the one hand, Pio Nono is the kind of person to take himself and his office seriously enough to actually do such a thing. Not actually pursue a war, of course (how?), but consider himself at war and call on the faithful to take action. Given the relatively freewheeling attitude towards individual rights, tyranny of the majority and mob justice then prevailing in the USA, that could get very unpleasant in short order. Kulturkampf, but with more lynchings and shootings.

On the other hand, this must be in the running for the top ten dumbest things to do, so I can't see Washington starting it.

Once it takes off though - what repercussions for the US attitude towards France (now not only meddling in Mexico but upholding an avowed enemy), Italy (putatively an ally) and Germany (who, after all, took France out of the equation, allowing a modern, secular Italy to remove a belligerent enemy of the United States)? Will this hold? Most of Europe will see the whole affair as tragicomedy, of course.

Washington will certainly not extend its (apocryphal?) offer of exile to Pius IX after 1870. What of the American bishops? Will their concerted opposition at Vatican I be viewed as a sign of divided loyalties? If the pope tries to remove the lot from office, he could lose the entire American Catholic church. I'm sure WAshington would take as sympathetic a view of these communities as Berlin did of the Altkatholiken. Any changes down the line for immigrant communities pre- and post-1870? Might the Irish be considered patriotioc American Catholics and the Italians dangerous Ultramontanists (Ultramarists?)?

Of course, you could also just detail the US Navy to blockade Ostia and see what the Mediterranean squadron has to say on the matter. One suspects rather firmly "no, bad USA, you mustn't!"
 
This idea was so interesting he made me will to write a joint Italo-American TL in chronological mode. I already started to write the start. Please say if it is a good idea.

Also, i want to know when exactly the letters were written.
 
LOL, I thought this said Paypal-American War


I first read it as Papua-American War and thought about an 1890s punitive expedition stumbling around the New Guinea Highlands after some assclown missionaries get eaten.

As for the actual suggestion, while it doesn't quite reach the level of ASB, it's one of the silliest What Ifs it's been my pleasure to read here in months.
 
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