Panzers in WWI

What would happen if the Germans had given more priority to their tank program in the Great War, and had begun building A7V tanks in 1917 instead of 1918, and in early 1918 the first LK I and LK II light tanks entered service? And if the war continued, built K-Wagen super heavy tanks and Oberschlesien fast medium tank entered service in early 1919? Could they have won the war?
 
The Von Mudra line tl by blairwitch is planning to touch on this i think. The Oberschlesien is the only German tank that had a chance of success though.
 
A7V production actually started in early 1917 - but proved to be a very slow process, because tank building didn't receive any priority - until Cambrai happened.
The trick for the POD is to find someone 'in the higher echelons', who sponsors tank construction.

I've done this by 'recruiting' Max Bauer, who IOTL was the most powerful enemy of tank construction (until mid-1918, when Saul turned into Paul). And I employed Willy Rohr, the father of the assault battalions, to come up with the tactics for tank employment.

Blairwitch has Bruno von Mudra, who soon is to become Chief of Staff of the German Army, as main sponsor. We'll see whom he picks for tactical evolution.

Given such PODs, a powerful German tank force of 200 to 1,500 vehicles could become ready for the 1918 spring offensive. The number would depend on the type chosen, heavy or light, or a mix of both.
 
I recommend checking out rast's current TL for an exploration of this.

I've done this by 'recruiting' Max Bauer, who IOTL was the most powerful enemy of tank construction (until mid-1918, when Saul turned into Paul). And I employed Willy Rohr, the father of the assault battalions, to come up with the tactics for tank employment.

Can you provide a link for your tl? I wanna see it!
 
A7V production actually started in early 1917 - but proved to be a very slow process, because tank building didn't receive any priority - until Cambrai happened.
The trick for the POD is to find someone 'in the higher echelons', who sponsors tank construction.

I've done this by 'recruiting' Max Bauer, who IOTL was the most powerful enemy of tank construction (until mid-1918, when Saul turned into Paul). And I employed Willy Rohr, the father of the assault battalions, to come up with the tactics for tank employment.

Blairwitch has Bruno von Mudra, who soon is to become Chief of Staff of the German Army, as main sponsor. We'll see whom he picks for tactical evolution.

Given such PODs, a powerful German tank force of 200 to 1,500 vehicles could become ready for the 1918 spring offensive. The number would depend on the type chosen, heavy or light, or a mix of both.

In mine Mudra will recruit Theodore Sproessner.... commander of the Wurtemberg mountain battalion WGB (acronym in German.) This will be following the WGB's brilliant performance in Romania. Sproessner (I may not be spelling it correct forgive me) was perhaps the most successful line officer in the entire war and had a knack for brilliant use of terrain and weapons. Several successful panzer generals served under his command in the WGB... Rommel is the most notable but Knobelsdorff (the younger one), Schorner and Schmidt passed through the command as well.

Sprossner was well versed in logistics and breakthrough operations and would be a natural choice for panzer development. I haven't figured out what the actual tank will look like since Mudra will more or less design it himself... I would think it will be much closer to a first generation whippet
 
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I thought the major problem with German Tank production was their inability to make thin hardened steel armor(because they lacked enough manganese for it's production). Their thick steel armor(like on naval vessel) was some of the best in the world, but their thin steel armor was too brittle. That's why the AV7 used 30mm to 50mm mild steel for it's frontal armor(since 50mm of mild steel gave about the same armored protection as 15mm of hardened steel). Even if the Germans started one year earlier, I doubt it would have had a serious outcome on the war. Their tank production in OTL was twenty AV7s, one AV7/U(the German rhomboid design using parts from the AV7), and two nearly completed K-Wagens, and several prototypes. With an early start, I think you could probably get that up to forty AV7s, fifteen AV7/Us, and four K-Wagens. I could see the K-Wagens being beneficial after the breakthroughs of 1918, but I don't think this minor increase in production could have won the war(might have had some more tank on tank action though).
 
German tank production was low because they didn't know whether they wanted tanks at all, and when they really knew they needed tanks, it was already mid-1918 and far too late to get production going before the end of the war. (Production, however, was started in the second half of 1918 and was for 4,000 light and 400 heavy tanks to be built in 1919.)

With a sound conception on how to use tanks, they could have produced some 200 A7Vs for early 1918 - or some 800 to 1500 light tanks.

They used thicker armour plates (only tempered without harderning additives), which made the vehicles slighty heavier. But that was no big thing as long as the engines were powerful enough. The softer steel was not so brittle and tended to deform with slight bulbs on inpact instead of breaking apart.
 
German tank production was low because they didn't know whether they wanted tanks at all, and when they really knew they needed tanks, it was already mid-1918 and far too late to get production going before the end of the war. (Production, however, was started in the second half of 1918 and was for 4,000 light and 400 heavy tanks to be built in 1919.)

With a sound conception on how to use tanks, they could have produced some 200 A7Vs for early 1918 - or some 800 to 1500 light tanks.

They used thicker armour plates (only tempered without harderning additives), which made the vehicles slighty heavier. But that was no big thing as long as the engines were powerful enough. The softer steel was not so brittle and tended to deform with slight bulbs on inpact instead of breaking apart.

For the reasons you just stated(heavier armor, bigger engines), leads me to believe that the Germans couldn't field a practical light tank. I also thought the bigger engine issue was what was holding up the two K-Wagen prototypes. They where having trouble building the 650 hp engines needed to make them operational. You probably could get 200 A7Vs if you focused all your production on them. The 57mm guns might be a problem thought, since those cannons where captured form the Russian and Belgian sources(limited number). Of course you could always make half of the production female tanks. Does anyone know how many of those 57mm cannons, the Germans captured? Of course we can't over look the poor trench crossing ability(and it's habit of flipping over because it was top heavy) of the A7V. Even in greater numbers it wouldn't have been a war winning wonder weapon.
 
The number of Maxim-Nordenfelts captured in Belgium and Russia amounted to several hundred; however, quite a lot of them were used for other purposes, nevertheless, supply of cannons never was an issue.

In terms of light tanks, the LK II was considered superior in all aspects to the Whippet by the contemporaries and also by today's armour experts. The first LK IIs became ready in early October 1918.

The A7Vs were completely unsuited for trench warfare. But unleashed beyond the trenches, on good ground, they were far better than everything the Entente could field. As the German spring offensive of 1918 meant the end of trench warfare and the re-starting of the war of movement, the pity was that only 20 vehicles had been built.
 
The number of Maxim-Nordenfelts captured in Belgium and Russia amounted to several hundred; however, quite a lot of them were used for other purposes, nevertheless, supply of cannons never was an issue.

In terms of light tanks, the LK II was considered superior in all aspects to the Whippet by the contemporaries and also by today's armour experts. The first LK IIs became ready in early October 1918.

The A7Vs were completely unsuited for trench warfare. But unleashed beyond the trenches, on good ground, they were far better than everything the Entente could field. As the German spring offensive of 1918 meant the end of trench warfare and the re-starting of the war of movement, the pity was that only 20 vehicles had been built.


Just wait till Sproessner develops them into all arms task forces ;)
 
If I recall correctly the Austrian were far more open to the tank and to the use of the armored car. They began to deploy armored cars before the Germans but never had enough production of armored vehicles due to demand for so many pieces of equipment.
 
If I recall correctly the Austrian were far more open to the tank and to the use of the armored car. They began to deploy armored cars before the Germans but never had enough production of armored vehicles due to demand for so many pieces of equipment.

There were a couple of Austrian engineers who had thought it out quite well but the people the farthest ahead on the subject in 1914 where the Russians... they had "armored tractors" a full year before the British at the Somme
 
After the A7V turned out to be such a clumsy machine, the K-Wagen wouldn't have a chance. Politically, maybe, but after the first few on the battlefield foundered from all sorts of unforeseen problems that would undoubtedly arise, it would fail.

The Oberschleisen had a good chance of succeeding. If the Germans had built it in 1918, it could have revolutionized world tank theory.

And the LK I and LK II light tanks might have worked, but in the face of hundreds upon hundreds of British heavy tanks, I'm not sure how good it would be. (Those are the only German WWI tank projects I know of.)

The final reason that Germany lost WWI, IMHO. was that they had too few tanks. They were losing for a number of reasons, but it was their lack of armored cars and tanks that caused them to collapse.
 
The Germans lost because they didn't have sufficient foodstuffs - and because people were fed up with the war.
The lack of tanks only was a minor grievance.

Cambrai shows what kind of riposte to expect from a fully operational German Army (without tanks). - Why they were so frantically trying to build tanks from mid-1918 on (the initial plans were made well in advance of Soissons and Amiens, they thus weren't mere reactions to the Entente tank attacks) had its reasons in the loss of fighting power of the infantry, due to the huge losses sustained in the spring offensives.

The A7V was clumsy only when used in the wrong kind of terrain. On open ground, the 30 tons monster was at least as fast as the British Whippet and had a firepower superior to all Entente tanks (except the 75-mm-armed French St.Chamond; now, that really was a clumsy one).
 
The Germans lost because they didn't have sufficient foodstuffs - and because people were fed up with the war.
The lack of tanks only was a minor grievance.

Cambrai shows what kind of riposte to expect from a fully operational German Army (without tanks). - Why they were so frantically trying to build tanks from mid-1918 on (the initial plans were made well in advance of Soissons and Amiens, they thus weren't mere reactions to the Entente tank attacks) had its reasons in the loss of fighting power of the infantry, due to the huge losses sustained in the spring offensives.

The A7V was clumsy only when used in the wrong kind of terrain. On open ground, the 30 tons monster was at least as fast as the British Whippet and had a firepower superior to all Entente tanks (except the 75-mm-armed French St.Chamond; now, that really was a clumsy one).

plus the Germans were very skilled at knocking out allied tanks. They were able to often disable them with mortar fire, 77mm field guns, and armor piercing bullets without much trouble
 
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