panzerfuhrer - pre tl discussion/brainstorming thread

Nuking Berlin would eliminate the ones who could order the armies to surrender.

Some other target, perhaps a tactical one, might be a different matter.

By the time nuclear weapons come into play as an option Berlin or anywhere else in Germany will have long since been in the hands of Anglo-American allied troops. Would they really nuke the Eastern Front in 1945 to help the Soviet's out? I kind of doubt it, but then again without industry backing it the German Army in the East would fall apart by the summer of 1945, but not before Anglo-American troops have taken all of Germany and even perhaps much of Poland.
 
No, nuke drop on Berlin, in fact I see Guderian not ordering up the Battle of the Bulge. I agree with BlairWitch749 that he shuts down the death camps, but I would go even further given his goal at this point is to look good for the WAllies as well as to keep the Soviet's out and will take actions to further that goal one of which was brought up by OKH_1946 and that would have probably been giving Rommel some symbolic governmental head of state type position after he gets out of the hospital to make for a more likable face on the new regime that at least Churchill might negotate with behind the scenes even though Guderian isn't going to give him any real power.

His relationship with Rommel would be a fascinating examination... especially if you butterfly away his wounding... with Rommel being healthy and having his men defect with Beck. Guderian then denounces Beck et all as traitors and snuffs them out with the panzer trainees... the question is what happens with the west... Rundstedt might be inclined to side with Guderian as would Schweppenberg BUT would Kluge and Rommel who have functional control allow them to? Could it degenerate into blue on blue action?

If Rommel's wounding still happens, without his force of personality available in the west, Guderian should be able to co-opt Rundstedt and Schweppenberg to arrest Kluge and accept him having control in Berlin

As Rommel recover's Guderin would be stuck in a quandary... he is a valuable propaganda tool, and perhaps a useful liason to the west BUT he had thrown in his lot (to whatever degree) with Beck, and that makes him a threat; plus Rommel and Guderian at this point had their relationship deteriorate to shit for about a year or so

Guderian was instrumental in Rommel not being given full field command in Italy, and Guderian was constantly attacking him to Hitler and the OKW for not obeying orders, calling his superiors assholes to their face and being so confrontational with Hitler that Hitler couldn't do any work for hours after talking to him (The ironic thing is that Guderian had all of these personal traits himself... his distaste probably stemmed from him wanting to be Hitler's personal pain in the ass as opposed to sharing)

Throughout 1944 they had feuded openly on the deployment of the armored divisions in France, and their inability to come to an agreement allowed Hitler to put all the divisions in his personal discretion piggy bank which seriously fucked up Germany's response to D-Day

I lean towards Guderian icing him...whatever the political consequences may be, Rommel is too big of a threat to leave alive, let alone in power... Guderian's first and foremost objective has to be to secure his power base
 
As little sense as a three way royal rumble would make from a practical standpoint, the circumstances nearly require it


Stauffenberg wouldn't be the problem... its Beck and Treskow who are mortal enemies of Guderian (especially Beck)

Guderian stopped the panzer training troops in potsdam from attaching to the home army personally.

There WOULD be a conflict because:

1. Guderian WOULD NOT allow Beck to relieve him of command
2. Guderian WOULD NOT take an order from Beck
3. Guderian WOULD NOT allow Beck to try to disarm his troops

Nor can Beck ignore him and hope for the best


Objectively, the reason Guderian stood down the panzer troops was to wait events and keep his assets in place for whatever he would want to do (support living hitler being the otl outcome)


With Hitler confirmed dead and the top party hatchetmen being arrested, Guderian would not being able to make the choice he did in otl... he only has 2 choices, let beck relieve and or arrest him (beck would never leave Guderian, who was a hardcore nazi in charge of an important position) OR take out beck with the panzer troops at his disposal
This does explain why Guderian would turn against Beck and von Treskow.
But why would he execute the Nazis that are in detention, as you claimed in your first post?
He calls von Stauffenberg and his comrades "traitors" for killing Hitler, and the first thing he does is killing the other top Nazis?

You say Guderian was a hardcore Nazi himself, why should he execute other Nazis? A possible answer would be "because he wanted power all for himself", but grabbing power in a country that is losing a war is not that attractive an option, nor is this something one can do at a moment's notice.

You need to plan months ahead and you have to find allies, a thing that can only be done by risking one's life. Did Guderian really do serious planning for taking over power in the Reich? Is there any indication that he had found fellow-conspirators?
 
This does explain why Guderian would turn against Beck and von Treskow.
But why would he execute the Nazis that are in detention, as you claimed in your first post?
He calls von Stauffenberg and his comrades "traitors" for killing Hitler, and the first thing he does is killing the other top Nazis?

You say Guderian was a hardcore Nazi himself, why should he execute other Nazis? A possible answer would be "because he wanted power all for himself", but grabbing power in a country that is losing a war is not that attractive an option, nor is this something one can do at a moment's notice.

You need to plan months ahead and you have to find allies, a thing that can only be done by risking one's life. Did Guderian really do serious planning for taking over power in the Reich? Is there any indication that he had found fellow-conspirators?

Despite his closeness to the political establishment (namely Hitler himself) Guderian had a really shitty relationship with Goering AND Himmler at this point... both had large security and even field forces which might be a threat to him (there is going to be a scramble for power... inspite of Guderian being a nazi, he is still not going to feel secure in letting those two fellows walk around free nor can they be trusted to serve under him (there has just been a coup, every one is going to be paranoid)

He would be establishing a junta that takes advantage of the party aparatus' control of the state, not trying to be Hitler junior

The evidence in OTL was that he wasn't going to support Beck and crew and that he was a nasty political operator. So some conflict with a more successful Beck HAS to happen... Beck can't ignore the panzer troops stationed in the Berlin suburbs or possibly expect Guderian to be willing to serve under him after the two had nearly come to blows and threatened each other with death in the 30's


Guderian has the right contacts in order to establish control of the state... namely Model, Schoerner and Rundstedt being willing to work with him AND a good long term working relationship with Sepp Dietrich who he could install at the head of the SS after liquidating Himmler... Dietrich had deep ties to the Berlin police force and Hitler's personal SS bodyguard battalion in Berlin and could order them to fall in line with Guderian

So whilst it might be shoestring and hastily put together, the concentration of power in the nazi state, and Guderian's alliances make it such that with the execution of about two dozen people and bringing the panzers into berlin to confine the home army to barracks, he should be able to take power with some semblance of order
 
Despite his closeness to the political establishment (namely Hitler himself) Guderian had a really shitty relationship with Goering AND Himmler at this point... both had large security and even field forces which might be a threat to him
They would certainly be a threat to Guderian, but only if he tried to grab power. Why should he be doing so in the first place? Goering and Himmler are military laymen, and at least most of the time they are not deluded enough to deny it. Generals do not grow on trees, and the top Nazis, whoever they might be, need the generals. They have to execute some of them because of their involvement in von Stauffenberg's conspiracy, but it would be absurd to execute Guderian (provided Guderian does not want the leadership for himself), who is both competent and reliably pro-Nazi. So Guderian is much safer from Goering or Himmler when not trying to be the top guy in Nazi Germany.

There is another reason why a coup attempt might not look at all attractive to Guderian. He is, in all probability, able to see that Germany is going to lose the war. As Inspector General of the Armoured Troops or as Chief of the General Staff he is a soldier and enjoys the protection of the Geneva Convention. In OTL he was never tried for any war crimes. But as the head of the German government he will in all probability be held accountable for crimes that the Germans committ under his leadership, which might very well cost him his head. Why take this risk for the very dubious honour of ruling a country in ruins for a year or so?

The evidence in OTL was that he wasn't going to support Beck and crew and that he was a nasty political operator. So some conflict with a more successful Beck HAS to happen... Beck can't ignore the panzer troops stationed in the Berlin suburbs or possibly expect Guderian to be willing to serve under him after the two had nearly come to blows and threatened each other with death in the 30's
Not supporting one side in a country's power struggle is not evidence of wanting power for oneself. I am perfectly willing to take back what I have written so far, if real evidence for a coup attempt by Guderian, or serious considerations for the same, can be found in OTL, but so far this has not been shown in this thread.

Guderian has the right contacts in order to establish control of the state... namely Model, Schoerner and Rundstedt being willing to work with him AND a good long term working relationship with Sepp Dietrich who he could install at the head of the SS after liquidating Himmler... Dietrich had deep ties to the Berlin police force and Hitler's personal SS bodyguard battalion in Berlin and could order them to fall in line with Guderian.
People with whom you have good long term working relationships are not necessarily fellow conspirators. The former might be turned into the latter, but this might equally well backfire, when your so-far-loyal co-workers report your conspirational plans to the relevant security services.
 
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They would certainly be a threat to Guderian, but only if he tried to grab power. Why should he be doing so in the first place? Goering and Himmler are military laymen, and at least most of the time they are not deluded enough to deny it. Generals do not grow on trees, and the top Nazis, whoever they might be, need the generals. They have to execute some of them because of their involvement in von Stauffenberg's conspiracy, but it would be absurd to execute Guderian (provided Guderian does not want the leadership for himself), who is both competent and reliably pro-Nazi. So Guderian is much safer from Goering or Himmler when not trying to be the top guy in Nazi Germany.

There is another reason why a coup attempt might not look at all attractive to Guderian. He is, in all probability, able to see that Germany is going to lose the war. As Inspector General of the Armoured Troops or as Chief of the General Staff he is a soldier and enjoys the protection of the Geneva Convention. In OTL he was never tried for any war crimes. But as the head of the German government he will in all probability be held accountable for crimes that the Germans committ under his leadership, which might very well cost him his head. Why take this risk for the very dubious honour of ruling a country in ruins for a year or so?

Not supporting one side in a country's power struggle is not evidence of wanting power for oneself. I am perfectly willing to take back what I have written so far, if real evidence for a coup attempt by Guderian, or serious considerations for the same, can be found in OTL, but so far this has not been shown in this thread.


People with whom you have good long term working relationships are not neccessarily fellow conspirators. The former might be turned into the latter, but this might equally well backfire, when your so-far-loyal co-workers report your conspirational plans to the relevant security services.


The thing is, with Beck assuming command of the army; Guderian's life is in danger anyway, Beck will try to arrest him at minimum if not kill him (Guderian had been challenged to a duel... yea actual duel, pistols at dawn by Kluge, whom he assumed to be in league with Beck AND Beck and Guderian had each threatened each other with death and tried to get the other thrown into concentration camps in the late 30's...the plotters and guderian in the position he was in cannot co-exist in anyway in 1944)

Having the party hatchetmen in custody (especially Goering and Himmler) gives Guderian an easy path to dispatch them. He can simply have the panzer trainees line them up against a wall and kill them, and then blame their deaths on Stauffenberg and Beck, whilst restoring law and order himself. I can't see him installing either of those fellows, who he despised at that point and had no confidence in their leadership abilities in power... Guderian was VERY egocentric... setting up a junta that makes use of the existing political structure (to a degree) fits his personality mold
 
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