Panic Submachinegun 1938

[Rinasoir]

Ok, it's 1938.

We know that they have access to some foreign SMG designs all ready (don't know which ones exactly, but I'm guessing mainly German/Czech ones), and the army has a list of demands that, at best, needs to be thrown out the window if they want to have anything at all.

Having two variants, one for the Coast Guard, one for the Infantry is not doable. One model, or else this isn't a real panic weapon.
Wooden/Plastic/Leather grips are an expense that they can not particularly afford to be picky on, best they can ask for would be "Metal grips/stocks with some leather wrappings".
Select fire with "decent first round accuracy" is actually on of the easiest things to ask for.
More reliable than the STEN, ignoring the time travel issues involved, isn't exactly difficult either. I mean even other STEN's were more reliable than the Mk II.

So, what I would picture it all coming out as, would be a Bergmann system with a very minimalistic gun built around it. Leather wrapped around the forward receiver to allow a safe handhold, and a stock that would look like the M1 Carbine Paratroop collapsible stock's anorexic cousin.

Main problem is going to be the magazine (if they go with a Bergmann system, the magazine they are going to adopt is just awful anyway) and the inevitability of some dumb conscript breaking the damn things because it is sticking out the side and makes a more appealing hand hold than the forward leather wrap. However if they do decide to move the magazine to be a bottom feeder (as in feeds upwards from the bottom of the gun as opposed to the side) I could see them stumbling onto something like the Blyskawica just with a possibly shorter barrel.

 

[yulzari]

More reliable than the STEN, ignoring the time travel issues involved, isn't exactly difficult either. I mean even other STEN's were more reliable than the Mk II.

The Sten was not unreliable as made in functioning as an SMG. It had a poor magazine choice but there were plenty of better models to choose instead from the pre WW1 Savage pistol onwards.

What was a problem (not unique to the Sten at all) was the lack of an effective safety. If the gun is carried with a full magazine with the bolt relaxed forwards a drop could cycle the bolt back by inertia enough to strip a round from the magazine and fire it. If the bolt is held back under spring pressure but held by the cocking handle in a recess in the cocking handle slot the snagging the cocking handle on anything could release it from the release and release the bolt forwards and fire it. These faults are still to be found on blowback SMGs to this day. There are positive locking additions that can stop both scenarios but add complexity, cost, time and more things to go wrong and slow the operation of the gun in battle. Detail improvements that can reduce the problem are trigger design to catch a bolt cycled rearwards by inadvertent inertia and better slot recess shapes and size plus cocking handle shaping to make it less likely to catch and be pulled free. In Ruralia's case, like so many panic SMGs, the hazard, albeit minimised, has to be accepted and training will also help. Other infantry weapons have their own negligent release scenarios. Rifles when clearing, machine guns when engaging belts etc.

The Sten MKIII with a decent magazine will do very adequately as the model. A side (or top) magazine is best for infantry use where compactness is not a requirement. There is no need for a folding stock. I do not see Ruralian soldiers falling from the sky nor firing from vehicles. Oh, and beat the rude and licentious severely if they are found using the magazine lips to open beer bottles because the buggers will if not closely supervised. There has never been a need for a select fire infantry SMG. Full auto only will do nicely. Police may have a use for single shot fire. A nice heavy bolt to hold the rate of fire down to say 400 rpm. No need to do the extra machining for a recessed bolt. A receiver a bit longer will do no harm when you have a fixed butt anyway. You may need to make new webbing (or similar) to both carry other ammunition and plenty of SMG magazines readily to hand in battle order and a simple large rucksack for 'stuff' which can be readily doffed before action. Perhaps we need to end the Ruralian army panic scenarios with 'panic uniforms, boots and accoutrements 1938'?

 

[stephen the barbarian]

French used a full auto version in WWI

iirc, i got on your ass for peddling this bull in a previous thread

sorry, there's no evidence that winchecher or the french army modified the 1907 to selective fire


it's likely a misinterpretation that keeps coming up because it's a cool idea

anyways, going back to the op,
here's a crazy idea, something that looks like a thomson, but is far easier to build,

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Once the SMG is designed and ready for production the designers might turn their hands to an actual rifle based on the Mauser bolt. (For all that this was a simplified design it looks like it would have made a reasonable service rifle)

 

[marathag]

iirc, i got on your ass for peddling this bull in a previous thread

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
I can only find secondary sources, not primary.

The Winchester was one of the guns that the Gangster's Gunsmith, Hyman Lebman created for the various 'Motor Bandits' of the 1930s.

In 1944, M1 Carbines were field modded to FA, you won't find that in an Army FM or TM

 

[stephen the barbarian]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The Winchester was one of the guns that the Gangster's Gunsmith, Hyman Lebman created for the various 'Motor Bandits' of the 1930s.

In 1944, M1 Carbines were field modded to FA, you won't find that in an Army FM or TM

extraordinary claims need solid evidence to back them up
this argument is crap, it doesn't disprove anything i've said
the fact that 1 guy i texas convented 6-7 guns is not enough to claim that the french made any effort to do so,
are you going to claim that the us had a program to make full auto 1911's in ww1?

would knock off your fetishizing the idea of of a pre-ww2 assault rifle, the major militaries and the us aren't interested

 

[Catsmate]

iirc, i got on your ass for peddling this bull in a previous thread

And yet many reliable sources, such as Phil SHarpe's writings based on factory records, state this.

... Winchester managed to sell its Model 1907 in some number to the French Army. The first French batch order obtained during October of 1915 totaled 300 rifles and this was followed by a further 2,200 rifles into 1918 - the last year of the war. French Army models differed from their civilian-minded Winchester offerings in that their internals were now slightly reworked to offer full-automatic fire (up to 700 rounds per minute) - making the Model 1907 something of an early assault rifle/assault carbine design.

 

[Catsmate]

The Winchester was one of the guns that the Gangster's Gunsmith, Hyman Lebman created for the various 'Motor Bandits' of the 1930s.

True, sometimes with a Thompson foregrip.

In 1944, M1 Carbines were field modded to FA, you won't find that in an Army FM or TM

TBH that didn't take much, I've seen it done with a Swiss army knife. In fact worn sears were prone to unselective fire on their own.

 

[marathag]

extraordinary claims need solid evidence to back them up
this argument is crap, it doesn't disprove anything i've said
the fact that 1 guy i texas convented 6-7 guns is not enough to claim that the french made any effort to do so,
are you going to claim that the us had a program to make full auto 1911's in ww1?

would knock off your fetishizing the idea of of a pre-ww2 assault rifle, the major militaries and the us aren't interested

A number of websites claim the the French had the FA done, in addition to the Bayonet and 20 round magazines.
No one claims the US had any intention of full auto anything built in the USA besides the M1909 Benet Mercie in the hands of an Infantryman, the Pederson was semi, and the BAR was too late, except for a handful at the very end. The rest would be in MG units.
In 1917 on Entry if the War, the USA had 670 M1909, 158 M1895 PotatoDiggers, and 282 M1904 Maxims.
The upgraded Colts, the Marlin built M1916 amd Browning M1917 were too late.

 

[riggerrob]

Dear yup ari,
A simple cross-bolt safety can lock the block in “fully-forward” or fully-rearward”’position, preventing accidental discharge if dropped.
Mind you, a cross-bolt safety adds another part, another hole and maybe another spring.
Hmmmm?

 

[riggerrob]

Swedish K....? But maybe add a telescoping bolt?

Telescoping bolt (e.g. Uzi) is only half the solution to shortening an SMG receiver. The second step is re-locating recoil spring(s) forward of the breech (e.g. wrapped around gas piston of AK-47).
The primary reason Uzi uses a telescoping bolt is to allow them to use the pistol grip that serves two functions (grip and magazine well). This helps shorten the overall length of the Uzi for tank crews.
As for manufacturing a telescoping boot, I was thinking of a machined bolt face pinned or spot-welded to a tubular cylinder or block. Hard tempered steel is important for firing pins and extractors, but the need for precision steel rapidly declines as you get farther from the chamber. You might even use recoil spring guide rods to add sufficient mass to the bolt to slow rate of fire to the 600 round per minute range.
I am still trying to figure out the weight of a Sten bolt?????

 

[marathag]

I am still trying to figure out the weight of a Sten bolt?????

Roughly 2 pounds depending if steel or brass

 

[b0ned0me]

A number of websites claim the the French had the FA done, in addition to the Bayonet and 20 round magazines.

A number of websites claim that the world is flat, others that vaccines give you cancer. Unfortunately these days something being extensively documented on the internet does not mean it’s true. Particularly “oh wow so cool” stuff like WW1 proto-assault rifles.
It’s certainly possible, and I can well believe the French might have trialled a few, but if so they don’t seem to have made any positive impression judging by the French weapons programs of the twenties and thirties.

 

[yulzari]

Roughly 2 pounds depending if steel or brass

The brass bolt was a cunning idea to save even more on machining by allowing a cast bolt. Not unlike (inspired by?) the bronze Lanchester magazine housing which was to save on the complex fabrication of the steel prototype one and the MP28 model design. A die cast iron bolt might be a step too far.

 

[riggerrob]

Yes dear yulzari,
I doubt if a cast steel firing pin would be strong enough. Maybe a cast brass or bronze bolt with a steel firing-pin inserted late in production. Alternately, is it possible to cast a precision steel pin into a mold-cast brass block?

OTL Some Vickers-Maxim medium machine guns had breech components made of "gun metal" which was brass or bronze with steel inserts on high-wear edges.

The Australian Austen Mark II was the ultimate in cast SMGS. It also had a parts count double that of the STEN gun it was based on, which more than doubled its cost to manufacture. Sadly, Austen had not advantage over STENs from the better factories in Britain and Canada.
No wonder the Aussies eventually standardized on the "good enough" Owen Gun.

 

[McPherson]

A. ZK-383; recommended as a squad auto gun.

B. C-4; (not the C-2) Argentina

C. EDDA Argentina

D. Lehnar Argentina

E. SIG MKMS Switzerland

F. Suomi KP/-31 Finnish

Only ones viable.

 

[sonofpegasus]

Just to settle the debate about the Winchest M 1907, according to Antony Williams, in an article about the history of assault rifles says the following.
" While these were mainly used by aircrew, in 1917 France placed an order for 2,200 of an automatic version of the M1907 for use by special assault soldiers."

I would tend to think that a published author and ammunition's expert of Antony William's standing could be cited as a reliable source.

 

[b0ned0me]

Just to settle the debate about the Winchest M 1907, according to Antony Williams, in an article about the history of assault rifles says the following.
" While these were mainly used by aircrew, in 1917 France placed an order for 2,200 of an automatic version of the M1907 for use by special assault soldiers."

I would tend to think that a published author and ammunition's expert of Antony William's standing could be cited as a reliable source.

That's not how really how it works. A historical fact is supported by reference to historical evidence. If there's no evidence, its not a fact but supposition. Nothing wrong with well-educated supposition as long as it's labelled as such, but there are far too many firearm myths floating around based on decades worth of anecdotes.

 

[McPherson]

I doubt if a cast steel firing pin would be strong enough. Maybe a cast brass or bronze bolt with a steel firing-pin inserted late in production. Alternately, is it possible to cast a precision steel pin into a mold-cast brass block?

I would be kind of worried about different heat expansion rates between bronze and steel.

 

[sonofpegasus]

I am well aware of the need to substantiate and list sources when writing academic papers or published research, unfortunately there are no references for specific entries in this particular article. However Antony Williams is a highly respected author and researcher principally on Ammunition and Guns and as Editor IHS Jane's Weapons: Ammunition he certainly has access to primary sources.