Panic anti-tank weapon 1938.

[riggerrob]

Poor Ruralia is till recovering from the Great Depression, but already seeing neighbouring nations re-arm. The scariest re-armament is in a neighbouring nation to the East. Rumour has it that the neighbours are building tanks.
Does Ruralia need a Panic anti-tank weapon in 1938?

Ruralia was also the scene of last-year’s “Panic fighter 1938” thread.
The duchy of Ruralia is a medium-sized nation along the coast of Europe. Her coastline is rough and rocky and stormy, but also produces more than enough fish to feed the nation.
Short, steep mountains, immediately inland from the coast limit road travel to three river valleys, but only the largest valley carries cargo barges connecting to the grassy interior.
That dry grassy interior is inhabited by a mixture of herders and sedentary farmers. The Ruralia Federl Police/Border Patrol survey the border from horse, motorcycles and a few old armoured cars. Armoured cars are primarily to out-gun local smugglers.
The Ruralia Coast Guatd recently bought some Orlekin 20 mm anti-cannons to halt cigarette boats.

 

[ennobee]

Short, steep mountains, immediately inland from the coast limit road travel to three river valleys, but only the largest valley carries cargo barges c

With this geography, does Ruralia really need about a tank assault? With only three river valleys for the tanks to drive in through, three barrages of remotely detonated mines -American Civil War technology- would take care of all the tanks their neighbor could throw at them. At least until the neighbor develops swimming tanks or LST's big enough to drop a contingent of tanks on the coastline.

 

[alspug]

Yes all European Nations needed Anti-Tank guns . the 20 MM Oerlikon only had 20 to 30 mm of PEN so inadequate. The Artillery in use may change what you want to buy. In 1939 any Anti-tank gun that could pen at least 30mm was probably going to do okay according to most nations. Depending on Alliances and the like access to guns is hard. Germany may well sell 3.7cm Pak gun in mid 30's . In 1939 they will only sell to allies. The French might sell you refurbished 75,s but they are not good AT guns. The Soviets may sell some 45mm guns if your politics is agreeable. The best I can see that was available was the 7.5cm Bofors anti-aircraft and Anti-Tank gun. This gives best of both worlds, also with a muzzle velocity of 850m/s no tank in 1939 is going to resist it. Expect with a standard AP or APHE round to do more then 75mm of pen at 500m. The gun was used in the Mextas line in an 8cm version with lower muzzle velocity and also used as an AT gun on Eastern Front extensively.

 

[Richard V]

Buy as many Vickers 6 tons as you can, T-26 would make an excellent substitute. Buy as many surplus French 75 as possible. Stick the gun in the hull and now you have an excellent tank destroyer for 1938.

 

[yulzari]

Design and make their own Blacker Bombard/PIAT equivalent in numbers. No special skills, tooling nor materials needed and it doubles as a short range medium mortar. What you save in AT guns you spend on other Ruralian military panic buys. Given Ruralian topography they will probably be most useful in the indirect fire mode but will take out any period tank if they can hit it. Rifle grenades, with a doctrine and training to use them, will be a cheap tactical boost and can include AT grenades like the No86 AT Grenade.

AT guns and SP guns are cool but Ruralia does not have the finances for them in numbers and needs to buy other things.

 

[Ramontxo]

Buy old 75s refurbish them with a new liner reducing the bore to 57mm (giving it a around 48 calibers long barrel) and neumatic wheels. If you want to up it contract Brandt in France for advanced ammunition (tungsten cored)

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Command and pressure detonated land mines in the passes, as many lorry mounted surplus naval 3 and 6 pounder guns as can be bought, Vickers or Browning .50 machine guns and anti tank rifle grenades. Plus lots of training and mass deployment of the population to dig anti tank ditches.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

There is no perfect answer to this. I would suggest a layered approach. The French 1937 Hotchkiss ‘long’ 25mm anti tank gun. A light anti tank gun system capable of being pulled by a light horse team and easily man handled. Capable of defeating 40mm at .5 km. So of the principle AFVs to the East only the BT7 can resist this weapon and only just across the frontal hull. The T26 cannot resist the shot on any part of the hull and turret. The 2nd layer would be to introduce anti tank rifles at platoon level. Given the terrain I would opt for the British Boys .55 cal weapon. Very durable and most importantly relatively light compared to its peers. The 3rd layer is having a dedicated unit of engineers with every infantry unit with the relevant trading making them capable of denying terrain through the destruction of bridges, passes etc as well making obstacles using felled trees etc. Also introduce a robust anti tank mine to be used to cover obvious tank routes and in combination with the above. Together they should be intended to slow and disrupt any armoured advance and where possible obstacles and mine fields to be covered by anti tank weapons, machine guns and artillery.

 

[Roches]

Given the geography described here, might OTL’s panic AT weapons like the Boys rifle or Poland’s Wz. 35 be more effective than they were IOTL? In mountainous terrain, the opportunity to aim for upper armor would present itself more often. (@Cryhavoc101 , your comment on the Boys ATR was posted as I was writing this.)

It’s not an ideal solution by any means, but it’s a better panic weapon than OTL often saw, if only because there would be a reduced need to penetrate frontal armor. Interesting about the PIAT, too — that was very nearly a panic weapon, albeit an ideal one, that became a standard one, and an effective one at that.

 

[jsb]

Does Ruralia need a Panic anti-tank weapon in 1938?

Yes, but might not help unless you actually have a real army?

Also what industrial size and economy are you etc?

The Ruralia Federl Police/Border Patrol survey the border from horse, motorcycles and a few old armoured cars. Armoured cars are primarily to out-gun local smugglers.
The Ruralia Coast Guatd recently bought some Orlekin 20 mm anti-cannons to halt cigarette boats.

What does the real army actually have not the probably insignificant police/CG....?

With hindsight in 38 you want to buy AT rifles, mines and any heavier guns you can get or rebuild?

The problem is you are running out of time if this was 36-7 you could make something yourself this is very tight... I would ask what calibres you have in service already as making a new bullet is going to be hard?

If you have something suitable a very simple AT rifle single shot bolt action with a standard HMG case firing a standard rifle sized AP round at very high speed or just a HMG AP round if you have a good one from the air force? Its going to be about as cheap as you can make it and in 38 its to late for much else.

 

[perfectgeneral]

Buy old 75s refurbish them with a new liner reducing the bore to 57mm (giving it a around 48 calibers long barrel) and neumatic wheels. If you want to up it contract Brandt in France for advanced ammunition (tungsten cored)

Since you need artillery more than you need AT guns, a low elevation option for your 75mm/3inch/18pdr guns and a discarding sabot round for a sub-calibre tungsten dart would be favourite. Much more propellant than your HE round as the volume for HE is not needed. Dual sights, one for each muzzle velocity and shell/dart weight.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

Since you need artillery more than you need AT guns, a low elevation option for your 75mm/3inch/18pdr guns and a discarding sabot round for a sub-calibre tungsten dart would be favourite. Much more propellant than your HE round as the volume for HE is not needed.

It's 1938, is the sub calibre dart even necessary?

 

[AdA]

Train goats to charge headfirst against tanks using soft inflatable dummy tanks pulled around on horse carts. When the enemy strikes, hang AT contact mines on the horns of the goats (don't explain the concept to the goats).
When in Ruralia, think like a Ruralian

 

[fastmongrel]

Buy some surplus naval Hotchkiss or Nordenfeldt 3 pounder guns and mount them on home made carrieges similar to those designed by Cpt Percy Scott for naval guns during the Boer War. A 3.5lb shot at 2,000fps is going to make a mess of the majority of 1938 tanks.

 

[marathag]

Since you need artillery more than you need AT guns, a low elevation option for your 75mm/3inch/18pdr guns and a discarding sabot round for a sub-calibre tungsten dart would be favourite. Much more propellant than your HE round as the volume for HE is not needed. Dual sights, one for each muzzle velocity and shell/dart weight.

It's 1938, is the sub calibre dart even necessary?

The US goofed with it's monoblock M72 Shot for the 75mm, would shatter on hitting German Face Hardened plate.

US just tested against the homogeneous plate, that was softer.
Whoops.

But that was sorted out in time, and APC was fielded: APCR was was developed, but not fielded. Not even the US had enough Tungsten.

but from an M2 75mm L/30 could penetrate 38mm of 30 degree sloped RHA at 2000 yards with the M72 Shot, and 46mm with M61 APC with bursting charge. Against FH armor at same range was 25mm and 48mm

This M2 Barrel and breech weighs 782 pounds

You can go longer, that M3 tube weighed 893 pounds, but penetrated at 2000 yards 33mm with the M72 and 54mm with M61 at 2000 yards.
The experimental T45 HVAP did 64mm

These were all with 38,000psi chamber pressure, for over 4000 round life from barrels.
Going higher is possible, at the cost of that barrel life. Later US cannons were rated for 46,000psi

Sights is a good thing to talk about. The US didn't want multiple gradients on the sight, so for the 76mm, the HE shell had its filler reduced, to keep HE and AP with similar trajectories

This was the wrong take.
The Soviets had multiple lines for all type of shot and shell, allowing a lower velocity shell to hold more HE, while still being accurate

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Train goats to charge headfirst against tanks using soft inflatable dummy tanks pulled around on horse carts. When the enemy strikes, hang AT contact mines on the horns of the goats (don't explain the concept to the goats).
When in Ruralia, think like a Ruralian

You know the Soviets actually did that with dogs. They trained them to associate the underside of tanks with food and strapped land mines to their backs. Worked almost perfectly too, with one slight catch. The dogs were only attracted to Soviet tanks.

 

[Driftless]

You know the Soviets actually did that with dogs. They trained them to associate the underside of tanks with food and strapped land mines to their backs. Worked almost perfectly too, with one slight catch. The dogs were only attracted to Soviet tanks.

Served 'em right....

 

[riggerrob]

Thanks guys,
You made some good suggestions about adapting existing artillery, land mines and goats to defend Ruralia’s mountainous western coast.

But what about Ruralia’s flat eastern border?
It is dry grassland able to support a few wheat farms, but much of it is still pastureland, home to more sheep and cattle than humans. Human tribes are descended from Mongols, Sioux, guanchos, etc. who do not understand why federal police get so excited about a vague line of post in the middle of traditional grazing lands.
Ruralia federal police/border guards spend half their time trying to halt cigarette smuggling across grassslands.

 

[Driftless]

A relatively cheap and mobile option might be something like the Danes had in 1940 - a 20mm Madsen on a motorcycle:
http://www.armyvehicles.dk/nimbusmc_20mmmg.htm

Certainly, you can argue the limited effectiveness of the setup, but it would be a comparatively cheap way to patrol the borders and at least provide some notion of deterent - a tripwire of sorts.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Ruralia federal police/border guards spend half their time trying to halt cigarette smuggling across grassslands.

And the other half of the time looking away while their relatives conduct business. (Involving unnamed tobacco products)


As for invading tanks? Let them pass and draw them into traps in the mountains further west.