Pan-Slav State

[LeX]

In thinking about European unification, I usually think first about Rome, then [Nazi] Germany, then France. But what about the Russians? How late would it be possible for them (or someone else, just thought with Russia it would be most likely) to unify the "Slavic" peoples to the point that by the 20th century they are about as ethnically equal as the Han Chinese?

And of course what sort of ramifications would this entail?

 

[LeX]

Out of the 100 people who saw this, not one knows enough about the Slavs to say anything?

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

There's a Pan-Slavic movement, though in terms of religion, they're deeply divided.

 

[BlondieBC]

In thinking about European unification, I usually think first about Rome, then [Nazi] Germany, then France. But what about the Russians? How late would it be possible for them (or someone else, just thought with Russia it would be most likely) to unify the "Slavic" peoples to the point that by the 20th century they are about as ethnically equal as the Han Chinese?

And of course what sort of ramifications would this entail?

Religion is the big issue, bigger than language often. Look up "Serb Cutter" in relation to WW2, and the treatment of Serb (Greek Orthodox) by Croats (Roman Catholic). The languages are not that far apart.

You probably need a pre 1100 POD, maybe earlier.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

True. You may need to somehow either unify the two Christian religions or prevent the Ottomans from conquering the Balkans.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Not easy to do, but let's say-there is no Teutonic Order in Prussia, Russia is united by Lithuanians, who converted to ortodox christianity and assimilated with ruthenian population: russo-lithuanian state is closer to the west than OTL Muscovy, and modernize faster (earlier Peter the Great), later conquers divided Poland. After collapse of Czech-Hungarian kingdom under Ottoman attack Russians take Czechia and Slovakia. After long period of russo-turkish wars whole Balkans are conquered by Russia before end of 18th century-we have pan-slavic state!

 

[kasumigenx]

If the Habsburgs inherited Poland and later Russia that would happen, if they were stronger than OTL they could had inherited Poland and Lithuania and then later Russia, I think it is more possible if the Habsburgs did not inherit Burgundy...Austro-Russian Empire? anyone?

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

Hapsburgs would be a clear no-no in Russia. They're Catholic while Russia is Orthodox.

 

[kasumigenx]

Hapsburgs would be a clear no-no in Russia. They're Catholic while Russia is Orthodox.

They could be Catholicized like what happened in the Union of Brest but there will be no expansion to Siberia and if there is it will be similar to the settlement of North America.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

The Ruthenians were Catholicized, but they were practically Catholics in all but name. Greek Catholics, in fact. For that to happen, Sigismund Vasa would have ended up taking the tsarist crown and Catholicize the Russians. Not a good prospective, since there would be a ton of resistance movements to Polonization.

 

[Writersblock]

... This idea seems like it ought to have been done before. Does anybody know if there's a thread with an idea similar to this one? About a pan-slav country?

 

[Hrvatskiwi]

... This idea seems like it ought to have been done before. Does anybody know if there's a thread with an idea similar to this one? About a pan-slav country?

I think people have had discussions on this before, but no TLs (It would take a very long period, so would be hard to write it in a chronologically contiguous manner. As many have already said, religion is a big issue, and even when not the real problem, is used to exacerbate it, as can be seen in the Yugoslav Wars and the Polish-Russian rivalry. The only real way to have this possible is either a) have some technological breakthrough early in Russia's history which makes it far more populous, powerful and advanced in relation to other nations in OTL; b) Either get rid of the great schism or make Russia (and Bulgaria, Serbia) Catholic, making religion less of an issue (I just don't see it being possible to have the Croats, Czechs and Poles as Orthodox, even the Slovaks are a bit of a stretch.

You also need to avoid having the Balkan Slavs under foreign domination (or ruled by weaker, more diplomatically isolated powers) which means butterflying away the Ottomans (maybe even Islam in general, although this likely makes Russia have nothing past the Urals or in the Caucasus) and perhaps the Hapsburgs. You might need them as part of a supranational organisation as well (like HRE was to German states). So you see how a good scenario for REAL Pan-Slavism is extremely difficult and butterflies abound. The PoD has to be very early.

(BTW, I am a Slav and a Pan-Slavist, and would LOVE a Pan-Slav TL, but please don't call the state Slavia, it sounds kinda dumb.

 

[rldragon]

Well, I don't know, Hrvatskiwi.

With Byzantium as their neighbor, neither Serbia nor Bulgaria is likely to convert. Neither is Russia, while I could see Poland, Slovakia and/or Croatia becoming orthodox.

 

[Hrvatskiwi]

Well, I don't know, Hrvatskiwi.

With Byzantium as their neighbor, neither Serbia nor Bulgaria is likely to convert. Neither is Russia, while I could see Poland, Slovakia and/or Croatia becoming orthodox.

hmmm. IIRC, there was a possibility for the Bulgars to convert to Catholicism, but they decided to go Orthodox (something to do with Byzantines). If we somehow butterfly away Byzantine influence in Russia (also nigh-on-impossible) we could do it. But it would be easier just to keep a unified church, requiring a POD quite a while before the Great Schism

 

[Elfwine]

hmmm. IIRC, there was a possibility for the Bulgars to convert to Catholicism, but they decided to go Orthodox (something to do with Byzantines). If we somehow butterfly away Byzantine influence in Russia (also nigh-on-impossible) we could do it. But it would be easier just to keep a unified church, requiring a POD quite a while before the Great Schism

A question that comes up though. How are you going to keep all of this together in the normal senses?

'Rus fragmented. Poland fragmented.

How is any man going to keep a hold of all of this in the early modern and earlier world?

 

[Marko]

One of the problems is that the Pan-Slav idea is a rather late one that originated in Croatia (off all the places).

There is only one thing standing in the way of German like unity among the Slavs (at least western and southern) and that is Hungary. Prevent Magyars or another non-slav group settling in the early 10th century or have Magyars become Slavs like Bulgars.

 

[kasumigenx]

The Ruthenians were Catholicized, but they were practically Catholics in all but name. Greek Catholics, in fact. For that to happen, Sigismund Vasa would have ended up taking the tsarist crown and Catholicize the Russians. Not a good prospective, since there would be a ton of resistance movements to Polonization.

The Habsburgs will not try to Polonize the Ruthenians and the Russians like the Jagellonians and the Vasas did they will just keep the personal union and maybe make the Ruthenians and Russians uniates or catholic.

 

[Socrates]

The Germans are split by religion just like the Slavs are. The biggest problem here is indeed the Hungarians, and also the huge area the Slavs are settled, making a single state somewhat unfeasible. However, I think a single South slav state including the Bulgarians is possible, You already had an East slav state with Russia taking Belorus and Ukraine. Now you just need to have Poland join with Czechoslovakia and you have a third one there.

 

[thrashing_mad]

The Germans are split by religion just like the Slavs are. The biggest problem here is indeed the Hungarians, and also the huge area the Slavs are settled, making a single state somewhat unfeasible. However, I think a single South slav state including the Bulgarians is possible, You already had an East slav state with Russia taking Belorus and Ukraine. Now you just need to have Poland join with Czechoslovakia and you have a third one there.

Germans aren't good comparison, since they were culturally rather homogeneous. Such pan-slavic entity could be compared to pan-romance speaking (France, Iberia, Italy), or pan-Germanic state (England, Scandinavia, Germany), highly unlikely, and even then highly unstable.

 

[kasumigenx]

The Germans are split by religion just like the Slavs are. The biggest problem here is indeed the Hungarians, and also the huge area the Slavs are settled, making a single state somewhat unfeasible. However, I think a single South slav state including the Bulgarians is possible, You already had an East slav state with Russia taking Belorus and Ukraine. Now you just need to have Poland join with Czechoslovakia and you have a third one there.

That union almost happened in the late 13th and early 14th century which resulted in the loss of Silesia.