Pan-Scandinavia

Valdemar II

Banned
O rone could have teh crazy idea of letting referenda decide about the issue. Crazy, I know. And if referenda arent allowed, a war seems justifid to me.

Yes a referenda could be the soultion, but the Holsteins wanted the entire Schleswig too, and was against a referenda. So it wasn't just poor innocent Germans persecuted by evil Danes. Beside the referenda could have been arranged after the Prussian conquest, so it wasn't like it Denmarks fault alone.

Anyways, "it were" - mind to explain a bit more, please?

You know how the HRE was a mess beyond explanation especially in a foreign language, this is one of those kind of thing, it goes back to the medieval periode and wasn't really a problem, before modern nationalism began. But it's a little like this, Schleswig was part of Denmark but the Holsteins nobles has special rights in Schleswig, including one law for entire area, and the Danish king promissed to never remove those right, Denmark then later tried to remove those right, and Holstein rebelled.
It's one the reason that a multiethnic federation was only peaceful solution and it would likely have been supported by a majority among both people, and if it wasn't for braindead Nationalliberals in Copenhagen it could have worked.
 

Susano

Banned
Okay, I admit, Prussia and Austria ;) could have called a referendum, too.

And hm, nontheless, the London Treaty also specifically called for Schleswigr emaining seperate from Denmark. But heh, two war reasons are better than just one, I guess.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Okay, I admit, Prussia and Austria ;) could have called a referendum, too.

And hm, nontheless, the London Treaty also specifically called for Schleswigr emaining seperate from Denmark. But heh, two war reasons are better than just one, I guess.

Yes it did, but by seperate, it meant semiautonom with continued ties to Holstein, it didn't mean that Schleswig was a independent state.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
What unification? German?

The Danish majority wasn't ready to abandon Holstien prior to 1864, we beat the Germans in '48 - remember!
But the few realist were ready to do so but did have a snowballs chance in hell to convince the rest.

Nope, Scandinavia unfication, I need to know it would have happened before or after the 2nd Danish- Prussian war.

The aim of the Danish nationalists was Denmark to Ejderen, which meant a annexation of Sleswig. Holstein with it's large German population was never as important. It would never be assimilated into Denmark and most were ready to sacrifice it if they could keep Sleswig. The Germans in Sleswig did not wanted to be annexed by Denmark, while the Sleswig Danes wanted it.

There were Sweidsh and Norwegian volunteers fighting for Denamark during the war, but it did not matter much for the outcome. However if Scandinavia was united there could be much more Swedes and Norwegians in Denmar, and the combined Swedish- Danish fleet would be much more dangerous. I guess the Germans would still win, but would they be able to deal such a devastating blow if Scandinavia was united, to occupy Jutland was a disaster to little Denmark, but would just be an inconvenient situation for Scandinavia. With much more men in Jutland the loss of Germans during the invasion would also be higher. The Scandinavians could probably work out another peace deal with the Germans than the Danes.
 
I wonder; how would Finland feel with regards to such a nation?
Assuming ASB intervention and Russia evolving in exactly the same way (very unlikely as this would all be obvious) would they move towards wanting to be a member of Scandinavia? Or would they still see them as nasty, historic oppressor even if they really weren't, especially next to the Russians.

I'd assume in actual fact though Russia would sit on Finland a lot more with a threatening nation on its western border- by itself Scandinavia wasn't a big deal but Britain loved any chance to have a go at Russia.
 
Nope, Scandinavia unfication, I need to know it would have happened before or after the 2nd Danish- Prussian war.

Before the Second War if at all. Post that that the differences were just as before but Denmark wanted Slesvig back and didn't dare offend any major power.

The aim of the Danish nationalists was Denmark to Ejderen, which meant a annexation of Sleswig. Holstein with it's large German population was never as important. It would never be assimilated into Denmark and most were ready to sacrifice it if they could keep Sleswig. The Germans in Sleswig did not wanted to be annexed by Denmark, while the Sleswig Danes wanted it.

Nationalists yes, but not the majority. The politicians knew that making a constitution for all of the state (hel-stat as mentioned by Valdemar II) was impossible but tried anyway.
The majority of Danes were convinced that the Germans would be beaten once again.

There were Sweidsh and Norwegian volunteers fighting for Denamark during the war, but it did not matter much for the outcome. However if Scandinavia was united there could be much more Swedes and Norwegians in Denmar, and the combined Swedish- Danish fleet would be much more dangerous. I guess the Germans would still win, but would they be able to deal such a devastating blow if Scandinavia was united, to occupy Jutland was a disaster to little Denmark, but would just be an inconvenient situation for Scandinavia. With much more men in Jutland the loss of Germans during the invasion would also be higher. The Scandinavians could probably work out another peace deal with the Germans than the Danes.

There was Swedish and Norwegian volunteers fighting in both wars and a Swedish brigade moved to Fyn during the first. But that was as close as you would get to unification!

The Scandinavians might be able to work out a deal if the Swedes and Norwegians had been ready to take part in the defences of Denmark - they wasn't.
 
What if the Pan-Scandinavian movement of the 19th century saw more success than OTL leading to an eventual united Scandinavian country?
If you do it before Norwegian independence I suppose its not unreasonable you could manage to get a Swedish princess marry a Danish prince or somesuch and even make the whole monarchy thing work out....

Also...How would such a country behave?
Sweden itself managed to be quite a lower mid-range power. Armed neutrality and all that. With 20 million or so people? And all those resources....
British aligned (it was very tied in with the empire economically), German aligned or neutral?


20 million people...??
We're ca 9.4 million people here in Sweden ;)
 
I wonder; how would Finland feel with regards to such a nation?
My guess is that if it's a unitary state ruled by one of Denmark or Sweden then they'll be scared of it, and possibly be happy with semi-autonomy in the Russian sphere.

If it's a federal 'empire' that they have a chance of joining as an autonomous principality (duchy, kingdom, whatever) then they might be more interested. Especially as Scandinavia is likely to be richer and more open to trade (and Lutheran).
 
Top