Pan-Celtic Analogue to Nazism

In the "Unconditional Surrender" discusion, IBC pointed out some other articles posted on a web-site that supported an "honorable peace" rather than "unconditional surrender" in WWII re: Germany feature a strong pro-Scottish/Irish, anti-Semitic, anti-British, and anti-Russian bias.

He said their way of doing things was familiar to those who had studied "Nazist tropes."

That got me thinking...

How might we make it so there's some kind of pan-Celtic Nazi-like movement in the early 20th Century?

Although Ireland is too weak to be a danger to The Rest Of The World if it fall under the sway of this belief system, if it got rooted into the US or Australia, that could be problematic.

(Australian "Nazis" could use the anti-British version of Gallipoli, in which ANZAC troops were cannon fodder and the British not so much, to stir up anti-British nationalist feeling.)
 
MerryPrankster

Isn't that basically what the IRA has been the last generation or so?

Steve

In the "Unconditional Surrender" discusion, IBC pointed out some other articles posted on a web-site that supported an "honorable peace" rather than "unconditional surrender" in WWII re: Germany feature a strong pro-Scottish/Irish, anti-Semitic, anti-British, and anti-Russian bias.

He said their way of doing things was familiar to those who had studied "Nazist tropes."

That got me thinking...

How might we make it so there's some kind of pan-Celtic Nazi-like movement in the early 20th Century?

Although Ireland is too weak to be a danger to The Rest Of The World if it fall under the sway of this belief system, if it got rooted into the US or Australia, that could be problematic.

(Australian "Nazis" could use the anti-British version of Gallipoli, in which ANZAC troops were cannon fodder and the British not so much, to stir up anti-British nationalist feeling.)
 
MerryPrankster

Isn't that basically what the IRA has been the last generation or so?

Steve

I was hoping for something a bit more impressive.

Plus the majority of people in Northern Ireland originally came from Scotland, so a pan-Celtic movement would include both of them.

(That could be a cause of internal friction in this hypothetical movement.)
 
Out of curiosity, what was Nazi racial policy on Celtic people?

I've always wondered that myself but I've never found anything on it.
My guess is they just never thought about it. It was nothing to do with them. My guess is they'd see them as moderately inferior but nothing to get worked up about. They're not infesting Germanic land and they're generally fair.

Thats German Nazis though. Given a Nazi victory I'd imagine the British fascists would be very anti-celtic. See it as bad blood infecting the pure Anglo-Saxon people. Given that Ireland would probally be united by fascist Ireland there could even be some 'liberate our lost lands from the sub humans!' thinking.
 
I was hoping for something a bit more impressive.

Plus the majority of people in Northern Ireland originally came from Scotland, so a pan-Celtic movement would include both of them.

(That could be a cause of internal friction in this hypothetical movement.)

MerryPrankster

True. I misread the initial post. Whether you define the IRA as fascist or not their definitely not pan-Celtic.;) The religious difference both there and in Scotland would be a major problem to any such group.

Steve
 
MerryPrankster

True. I misread the initial post. Whether you define the IRA as fascist or not their definitely not pan-Celtic.;) The religious difference both there and in Scotland would be a major problem to any such group.

Steve

I'm imagining this movement having its own "Night of the Long Knives" where people unwilling to accept the partition of Ireland all die due to being politically inexpedient.

(Think Rohm and the left-Nazis.)

Of course, if the movement is anti-British, they might view the Ulstermen as being "race traitors" in need of being either re-educated (which might well be equated to converting to Catholicism) or obliterated.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
The current IRA is actually internationalist and marxist inspired.
Of all the definitions of fascism, neither "uses the language of decolonization ideology" nor "terrorism" are defining traits.
 
The current IRA is actually internationalist and marxist inspired.
Of all the definitions of fascism, neither "uses the language of decolonization ideology" nor "terrorism" are defining traits.

archaeogeek

It is also imperialistic, anti-democratic and deeply sectarian. It's basic belief is that its followers have the right to seize land and rule people who wish nothing to do with them. I can also point out another similarity with totalitarian states in it's virtual pathological dishonesty.

Steve
 

archaeogeek

Banned
archaeogeek

It is also imperialistic, anti-democratic and deeply sectarian. It's basic belief is that its followers have the right to seize land and rule people who wish nothing to do with them. I can also point out another similarity with totalitarian states in it's virtual pathological dishonesty.

Steve

lol, so is Britain, half of Northern Ireland voted for secession. pot, kettle, etc. (oh, excuse me, 48%, since they gerrymandered the counties until it was just short of a nationalist majority). As for sectarianism, only some parts of IRA are. Nice try though. The question was "fascist", not "terrorist groups I don't like".

As an aside there were localized fascistic nationalist groups in Ireland and Brittany, probably Scotland too, with some degree of influence in the 30s (Eamon de Valera iirc was from one of them, while the breton national party split up into rabidly reactionary and socialist groups during the war), but none were pan-celtic; they were more like the Chetnik and the Ustasha.
 
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I think Ireland is really your best chance for something like this to arise. You could argue that de Valera was on his way, though his style was more sectarian than racist. If you had a slightly less confessionally charged situation, a shared Celtic racial identity could be used as a tool to integrate Irish Protestants.

The Bretons might also develop something similar if they get treated badly enough. The problem is, all other Celtic-speaking populations in Europe spent the twentieth century as part of someone else's nation state. That's not a good position to be in if ypou want to develop dfascistic tendencies. Maybe radical traditionalist or local-identity based, but the veneration of state poqwer becomes hard if state power pulls you up by your ear for mispronouncing your own name in first grade.

As to crazy racists, yeah, they had those. And the Nazis largely thought iof the Cents as a subgroup of Aryan, not quite as superior as the Nordic, but generally on par with the Dinaric or Falic types. And they loved Celtic resistance against Britain and France. Sometzimes I suspect the biggest problem the Irish Republicans have are their friends.
 
Well, I have speculated, given how Hitler used a wild hodge-podge of ideological garbage from late 19th / early 20th century, anyways, if it would have been possible for him to develop an obsession with Celtic mysticism/occultism instead of Germanic mysticism/occultism. Historic Celtic presence in Germany is fairly ripe (mainly in the south and west of Germany, but bear in mind Hitler was Austrian, so sure as hell he could feel himself as close in heart to the presumed original Celtic homeland), so indeed forging a Nazi ideology assembled around a twisted form of Pan-Celticism would be viable. The problem, of course is, the racial component as we know it in OTL largely goes out of the window. :p
 
Somehow it breaks my suspension of disbelief. Uniting such different people as Irish, Scots and Welsh (and maybe Cornish and Bretons)? Who're split in Catholics and Protestants? And many of which have English ancestors? And then what? Would they try to defeat the English, and re-celtify the British Isles? That'd be even crazier than Hitler's plans.
 
lol, so is Britain, half of Northern Ireland voted for secession. pot, kettle, etc. (oh, excuse me, 48%, since they gerrymandered the counties until it was just short of a nationalist majority). As for sectarianism, only some parts of IRA are. Nice try though. The question was "fascist", not "terrorist groups I don't like".

archaeogeek

What are you on? Where do you get 48% of the population voting for secession? The Catholic minority is growing in proportion but its still some way below that.

Only some parts are sectarian? Which parts aren't? The drug pushers, protection rackets and psychopaths perhaps?

I agree that I think the IRA are scum, like at least some of their extreme Protestant rivals. Their polices are a good match to those of fascism. Believe in violence as the preferred choice. Refusing to accept any compromise. Denying anyone else any legitimacy, including their right to run their own lives. [Not only the Protestant majority but also the Catholic minority. Its uncertain where the various protestant groups or the IRA killed more Catholics during the troubles].

It might not tick all the boxes but enough I think I can say if the cap fits.

Steve
 

archaeogeek

Banned
It doesn't tick boxes that differentiate fascism from other extremist groups, so no. Also, three of the six counties voted (and still do to this day) for independence, but whatever.
 
Somehow it breaks my suspension of disbelief. Uniting such different people as Irish, Scots and Welsh (and maybe Cornish and Bretons)? Who're split in Catholics and Protestants? And many of which have English ancestors? And then what? Would they try to defeat the English, and re-celtify the British Isles? That'd be even crazier than Hitler's plans.

In order to qualify as a Fascism analogue, they wouldn't have to do any of that, just want to. Plenty of fascist and authoritarian regimes in interwar Europe had some pretty crazy ideas they never managed to put into practice. It doesn't quite fit the makeup of OTL's Irish Republic, but a more militaristic (threatened by the Evil British) and less religion-based state could well define its goal as reuniting not just the Isle, but all Celtic peoples. Scotland really isn't a far stretch, what with the Irish civilising mission over the savage Picts, and the Welsh and Bretons could just be added as afterthoughts. It's not like any of this is realistic, but that doesn't matter, it'sd for home consumption, not foreign policy.

Of course, one should not forget the possibility of France going that way. Nos ancetres les Gaulois and all that. I even recall a French author form mid-century arguing that the Northern Germanic settlers in Normandy and the Franks had "really" been Celts whereas the Germanic tribes that settled east of the Rhine and in italy were scum from Central Asia. It's amazing what you can come up with.
 
I'd just like to point out that Nazi Ireland is pretty difficult. Our form of nationalism, whilst anti-British and rather secterian on most accounts, was generally harmless compared to the Nazis.

Look at Eoin O'Duffy and his Blue Shirts. They couldn't make a big enough dent in nationalism because it was dominated by a more traditional form of nationalism that had been around since Wolfe Tone and UI. Being racist just didn't come in to it. And to this day we don't have a "National Party", despite attempts by the BNP to sponser one.

That also goes for the Socialists, the furthest left most Irishmen went in the early 20th century was a capitalist republic. Again, derived from the ideals of Tone and UI. Socialists like Connolly and Larkin couldn't make a big enough dent in it because our idea of freedome was derived from the early 19th century, pre-Marx.
 
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