Pakistan in the Vietnam war

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Noscoper, Jan 4, 2019.

  1. Dingus Khan Emperor of Nowhere

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    Pakistan is far too concerned with fighting India to worry about Vietnam. Besides, they wouldn't want to annoy their ally China by attacking their Southeast Asian proxies.
     
  2. The Militant Doberman Well-Known Member

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    And just what “support” do you think will make India “back down”?
    In OTL 1960s India annexed Goa from Portugal (a US ally and founding member of the NATO alliance) and it didn’t cause any wide crisis.
     
  3. haider najib Well-Known Member

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    First one is economic, sanctions so on. Second is militarily america can arm and support pakistan while threatening india, whats india going to do? Europe and most of asia are americans allies. Chinese and usa are getting close. Detente still in action soviets are not going to get involved when india causes it they gain nothing, also under Brezhnev he was trying to get good relations with muslim nations, so backing a hindu majority nation will not help. America can place bases in pakistan, what is india going to do attack them? India is not even close to american power, they got defeated by the chinese. Is india going to fight or challange the worlds strongest military?


    Are you serious on using Goa as an example? First Portugal means nothing america has little interest there. Pakistan is a direct military allie as they are in Vietnam with them, they cant allow allies to fall, cause whats the point of allies if you dont back each other.

    Goa was also a colony from the empire days america won't back saving old imperial relic, in which the population don't see themselves as Portuguese. Btw have you heard of the Falkland war america did alot to help britain there as they were a key allie. Also goa is not in the north sea, mediterranean, europe or north america.

    India is directly attacking a military allie america has interest and obligation to protect them. I already stated pakistan wont get involved unless america guarantees they will cover them in case of indian aggression.
     
  4. The Militant Doberman Well-Known Member

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    For sanctions to be effective you need to have trade/aid up and running in the first place. Just how much money did India get from USA in 1960s/1970s? Something tells me the answer is “not much”.
    USA did so OTL already. It’s been a while since I seen it, but I recall reading a book on famous historical tank battles that stated Pakistan used modern M-60 tanks imported from USA and despite this edge performed poorly against older Soviet tanks used by India.
    American military did operate a base in Pakistan in that time period. Didn’t stop the India-Pakistan conflict in the 1960s.

    Also lol at the idea of USA going to war with India on Pakistan’s behalf.

    Uncle Sam: “Pakistan, we need your help fighting in a small tropical country. If you do so, we’ll go to war for you against a much, MUCH bigger tropical county”
    Why are you talking in hypotheticals here? India and Pakistan did have major fights in the 1960s & 1970s. The Soviets didn’t throw India under the bus, the Arab World did not swoop in to save Pakistan or cut ties with Moscow and the Europeans continued their relationship with New Deli.
    *cough* https://www.nytimes.com/1975/04/18/archives/kissinger-weighs-effect-of-a-communist-portugal.html?url=http://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1975/04/18/76351600.html?action=click&region=ArchiveBody&module=LedeAsset&pgtype=article&contentCollection=Archives *cough*
    Point. USA was anti-colonial.
    Not really? I certainly don’t recall US putting army bases on the Falklands or invading Argentina or doing any number of things you say Washington would do for Pakistan.
    Why would USA agree to entangle itself in the Pakistan-India conflicts for, what, a few tens of thousands/year extra allied troops (at best) in Vietnam?

    For that matter, why would India invade Pakistan just because it sent troops to Indochina? It’s not like South Korean deployment to Vietnam caused a Second Korean War.
     
  5. haider najib Well-Known Member

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    (is that correct how to the snip)
    Then theres no point for thread then, pakistan wont get involved if they dont have gurantees. Pakistan is not that stupid enough to cause war if there troops are in a foreign country. That means india has to start the conflict, that means alt wars.
    I think your missing the point the thread is literally asking pakistan in Vietnam war, im giving the most likely way you can get them involved. All you said doesn't matter as this thread is asking to get pakistan in vietnam. Look at the original message if you have problem take it up there. Im trying to get what the stated in question answered.

    Also america did help Britian in the Falkland side winder missiles, satellites, and intelligence, maybe even an offer of a carrier if the british one sunk. USA support doesn't need to be boots on the ground as britian had that covered.

    Can you explain then how pakistan would be involved then in vietnam? As that is what the thread asking.

    The entire point of hypothetical is kinda what the website it about you know alternate history. if pakistan is involved in Vietnam it cant stir shit with india so to have conflicts with both nations it needs to be india that caused it.

    Never brought up the arabs you did. My point there is a america more invested in pakistan means america has more interest in it.

    All you done so far is to refuse understand what the thread is, and instead keep trying to 'enforce' your view. Offering nothing else. Pakistan never got involved originally. So there has to be some change to for them to consider it. Secondly a change in america to accept said help. 65 cant happen as pakistan is in vietnam they don't have the forces to fight india there goes that war. Bangladesh who knows honestly, that anyone guess but if america is willing to accept pakistani help and for pakistan to actively get involved they have to be much closer to the point they have to be allies as the only other nations in involved on USA side were allies. If you have a better explanation please be my guests explain why pakistan would get involved. Pakistan played the global powers to try and benefit. If they are commiting to america there has to be a reason.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  6. The Militant Doberman Well-Known Member

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    Gee, sorry for debating and pointing out gaps in your assessments while also providing citations supporting my point of view. :rolleyes:

    Now that I realize that I should ignore things like “logic” or “citations” the idea that US would get entangled in a new conflict with one of the most populous countries on Earth just so Pakistan can send a few thousand troops to Vietnam totally makes sense. :)
    That’s like saying that if someone asks “How can I get from Berlin to Frankfurt?” and you reply with “You should ride there on the back of an elephant!” no one should point out that your answer is unrealistic because “it doesn’t matter as the original question never stipulated the answer should be a serious one”.
    So you can quote a Wikipedia article. But can you see why kids love the taste of Cinnamon Toast Crunch? cite an NYT publication? :)

    https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/29/...ed-rare-friction-for-thatcher-and-reagan.html
    So much for assertions of overwhelming and unquestionable US support for UK. Not that Washington wavering on the matter should surprise anyone given that this was the Cold War and Argentina was led by an anti-communist dictator who received help & support from Uncle Sam.
    ”US aid can come in many forms, not just boots on the ground. But Pakistan will be needing US boots on the ground since their own boots will be in Vietnam.”
    Pakistan could always just choose to pull a Canada (aka: allow its citizens who want to partake in the Vietnam conflict the ability to serve alongside the US military on a voluntary bases)
    You brought up the Soviet Union working to improve ties with the Muslims, which I took to mean the Arab states as those were the most populous and powerful Islamic nations of the time.
    US and Pakistan were allies OTL (still are, on paper at least). Not sure where you’re getting the idea that they weren’t. Pakistan was even a founding member of USA-backed Baghdad Pact & SETO (aka: “Asian NATO”) projects back in the 1950s.
     
  7. Barry Bull Donor

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    Deploying one army battalion attached with various support forces and 1 company of special forces to Vietnam is not going to make Pakistan defenceless against India. That's the size of New Zealand's contribution in the Vietnam War.

    Whether the Pakistani government at that time consider such move politically and diplomatically useful is another matter.
     
  8. Pangur The Cat Donor

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    When did you have in mind for Pakistani involvement to start? Pakistan over the years had enough o s plate re India which makes me wonder when the viable time windows would be. I suppose its possible that the Pakistani gov & military might be tempted to send maybe a battalion in the hope that the US would provide more support to them that they did ITL
     
  9. Noscoper Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking 1964 or early 1965
     
  10. Pangur The Cat Donor

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    Thanks, OK 1965 is out I think as OTL at least they were busy on the last bit of planning for Operation Gibraltar and the executing it followed by the war with India which they lost. 1964? maybe. However there is the matter of the alliance with China (1962) which has to be butterflied away. I cant see a nation that has an alliance with China being involved i Vietnam.