Pagan Russia

How can we keep the Eastern Slavs still under the worship of the Old Gods? I am willing to weaken Byzantium and change up the native religion's structure a bit. I know surviving European pagans are a bit of a cliche but no one ever seems to consider the huge, fairly isolationist Kievan Rus as a candidate.
 
The Russians would probably be worshipping the Elder Gods, not the Old Gods. Just a minor correction, there.

Anyways...:rolleyes:

A pagan Russia is most likely if you butterfly Christianity away entirely.
 
A pagan Russia equals a no Russia if you have Christianity become dominant in Europe. The Teutonic Knights would've conquered the pagan Russians like they did to the Prussians and Lithuanians.
 
A pagan Russia equals a no Russia if you have Christianity become dominant in Europe. The Teutonic Knights would've conquered the pagan Russians like they did to the Prussians and Lithuanians.

And what allows them to do this? Could they conquer all the East Slavs?
 
A pagan Russia equals a no Russia if you have Christianity become dominant in Europe. The Teutonic Knights would've conquered the pagan Russians like they did to the Prussians and Lithuanians.

Their's a big difference between some small baltic tribes who are near-by more or less easy to get to and the much larger populations of the Russian lands who are further away much more difficult to get to.
 
So does the fact that Christanity>Paganism come into the reasoning here? The Mongols were 'Pagans' and they kicked all those guys. Even Rome got its rear handed to it by a bunch of tribes off in the unknown of Germania, why couldn't a similar situation happen in Pagan Russia?

I think its possible, especially if the Nords do not convert and they along with the Steppe Tribes coming through the Black Sea Steppe (Ukraine) play havoc for Christian Europe's advance through the north and south. They could survive for sometime without interferance from Christian Europe and most likely the pressures of all these guys trying to invade them will force the creation of some Ivan to unite them all.
 
How can we keep the Eastern Slavs still under the worship of the Old Gods? I am willing to weaken Byzantium and change up the native religion's structure a bit. I know surviving European pagans are a bit of a cliche but no one ever seems to consider the huge, fairly isolationist Kievan Rus as a candidate.

Kievan Rus was not isolationist. The royal families of Europe, including the English Anglo-Saxon royal house, intermarried quite freely with the Keivans.
 
Kievan Rus was not isolationist. The royal families of Europe, including the English Anglo-Saxon royal house, intermarried quite freely with the Keivans.

Really, that's quite interesting. Was this while the upper class was still Vikings?

I mean isolationist in the sense of, far away. I meant isolated.
 
A pagan Russia equals a no Russia if you have Christianity become dominant in Europe. The Teutonic Knights would've conquered the pagan Russians like they did to the Prussians and Lithuanians.

Hence why it would just be better for Christianity to never become dominant at all, or be butterflied away somehow.
 
Hence why it would just be better for Christianity to never become dominant at all, or be butterflied away somehow.

That would require a POD where Christianity remains (at best) a minor religion among many in the lands of the Roman Empire and is split among many sects.
 

Maur

Banned
A pagan Russia equals a no Russia if you have Christianity become dominant in Europe. The Teutonic Knights would've conquered the pagan Russians like they did to the Prussians and Lithuanians.
No they wouldn't. They didn't even conquer Lithuanians fully, in fact.
 
Really, that's quite interesting. Was this while the upper class was still Vikings?

Yaroslav's children were intermarried with almost every major royal house of Europe. Mstislav's as well. Galich-Volhyn kept intermarrying longer than that.

Vikings - well, even in the loosest sense, Yaroslav was not a real Varangian anymore. In fact, he was the last to invite a sizable Varangian army to fight for him. Thereafter, boyar druzhinas as well as Black Hats/Yass-Kasogian horsemen became dominant military and political forces.
 
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I think I want to point out some dynamics a Pagan Russia writer wants to consider:

Who has the authority in Pagan Rus?

In OTL, the Princes and their druzhinas existed as a sort of tribute-gathering state within a state; the prince and his druzhina were 1. mobile, often outright changing their home town and ceding their previous principality to rival relatives 2. concerned primarily with trade and tribute and war in that order. This was complemented by a large degree of self-governance by the cities and their hereditary and elected notables. Eventually, however, the Princes sought to really affirm their power putting themselves as parmount over the cities and the local nobles on all matters. This of course makes sense and is a stable trend.

Russia's ancient polities were traditional structures, with the function of lawkeepers held among the priesthood (volhvi). The Princes fought many rebellions inspired by these figures. Moreover, the paganism differed from tribe to tribe and city to city. The first attempt at a unified pantheon was by Vladimir himself. He later found it easier to adopt Christianity for the same purposes.

The conversion thereafter proceeded in the customary fashion with ample bloodshed. So:

1. The princes will eventually want to expand their functions beyond simply being warleaders and strengthening their income by trade.
2. They will be opposed in this quest for absolute legitimacy by the pagan priesthood, who represent traditional structures.
3. East Slavic paganism is not unified. Additionally, Rus princes and their lands and cities contain multiple Finnic, Ugric, Turcic and Baltic tribes as numerous when put together as the Slavs themselves.

A prince may attempt to construct his own synthesis of the religions of the East Slavs and their neighbours. However, this means either surrendering some of the desired authority to the pagan priests in trying to co-opt them, or creating a brand new tradition of priesthood. This, by the by, in the face of increasing number of Christians among the Varangians, merchants, and other important minorities in Kiev proper (Armenians, say) and in the face of a hostile Europe and a different-religion main trading partner (Constantinople).

It is much much easier to invite Christian priests and legitimise yourself that way; it's a rare prince, therefore, that will attempt the pagan route.

Who then can oppose the princes? Perhaps the larger cities, Novgorod in particular. If the boyars can raise their own troops as it happened in the late middle ages, they can maybe oppose the Princes. However, that severely threatens the entire Rurikid tribute racket and could even unite the extended clan against the Novgorod veche.

So the strongest option would be a combination of a large pagan veche electing pagan princes, while trading with different partners than the Rurikids did. At the same time, they have to remain tolerant of Christians, both because of their own cosmopolitan population and because they may need to ally with the Varangians vs. the Rurikids, or vice versa. And the new pagan priesthood/nobility should at least be aware of the necessity of developing a written legal and religious framework for the new state. And the Christians will proselytise and provoke incessantly, because that was the spirit of the time.
 
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