Pagan Kingdoms of North-Eastern Europe

According to Wiki, most of them were Ugric.
Even according Wiki they were Finno-Volgaic

This is a very nice comment. "Power vacuum" you and everyone else (not exposed to Finnocentric propaganda) see in OTL NE Russia is what adepts of Finnwank are seeing as a base to build countries able to fight off Slavic explosion, which ate Eastern Europe from Balkans to Urals alive during this period. Vacuum fighting nuclear explosion back. How plausible is it?
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Under power vacuum I thought only not existence of organized political entities.

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Me myself, being Finnish, find it interesting scenario while others may find it alien :)
Another Finn!

Maybe somethin like this?
Ugriimpeerium2.PNG

That's really pushing it. By a lot.
No it's not. It's just approaching the natural borders of Finland (TM). ;)
 
Under power vacuum I thought only not existence of organized political entities.
Lack of power structure usually signals lack of productive and dense population. Therefore Finno-Ugric tribes need to develop much more productive economy (which, in turn, will allow them drastic numeric rise) in any TL where talks of "Natural Borders of Finland" are not ASB. IOTL Finland from Baltic to Yakutia is ASB.
 
Lack of power structure usually signals lack of productive and dense population. Therefore Finno-Ugric tribes need to develop much more productive economy (which, in turn, will allow them drastic numeric rise) in any TL where talks of "Natural Borders of Finland" are not ASB. IOTL Finland from Baltic to Yakutia is ASB.

I think that Hazazel was joking.
 
Against the Slavic expansion to the east in the 9th century, the various Ugric tribes of Russia, such as Merya, Maria and Mordvins unite and together with their Turkish allies, manage to drive the Slavs back

588px-Muromian-map.png


The collaberation of the Ugric tribes evolves forward and a Kingdom of Ugria is born somewhere in the 11th to 13th century

Meanwhile the Finnish tribes of Tavastians, Kvens, Karelians, Ingrians and Estonians and various other, repulse the Swedish 'Crusades' and form a Kingdom of their own

At the same time, Lithuania is also united as in OTL, making three strong pagan nations in Northern Europe

How plausible this is? How would these Kingdoms fare in the Middle Ages, and perhaps even forward? And what of Mongols? They would probably conquer these pagan Kingdoms easily

They would probably convert to Christianity at some point...but Orthodoxy or Catholicism? I would say Catholicism since Lithuanians also did that, and Orthodoxy was mainly a Russian thing in Eastern Europe

And another thing, would the Slavs also form their own Kingdom? Perhaps not Russia, but something like...Ruthenia? Czar of All Slavs, anyone?




Why would you refer to this notional Finno-Ugric super-group as the "Pagan Kingdoms of Eastern Europe", that fends off the Scandinavian Crusades if you intend for them to adopt some form of christianity anyway?:confused:
 
Why would you refer to this notional Finno-Ugric super-group as the "Pagan Kingdoms of Eastern Europe", that fends off the Scandinavian Crusades if you intend for them to adopt some form of christianity anyway?:confused:

Because they were pagan when the POD occurred? IOTL you wouldn't call the Roman Empire Christian, even though it happened with Constantine in the 4th century.
 
Lack of power structure usually signals lack of productive and dense population. Therefore Finno-Ugric tribes need to develop much more productive economy (which, in turn, will allow them drastic numeric rise) in any TL where talks of "Natural Borders of Finland" are not ASB. IOTL Finland from Baltic to Yakutia is ASB.
This depends. IMO without the biggest trade root in Eastern Europe Russia hardly would evolve. Where did you ever see "Natural Borders of Finland" on those boggy plains?:eek:

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This depends. IMO without the biggest trade root in Eastern Europe Russia hardly would evolve.
You know, I don't care about Russia in it's present shape and form (which is really remnant of Mongolian invasion, which managed to grow enormously due to favourable location). But what we're dealing with here is Slavic expansion. Call the country Ukraine, Poland, call it Anti-Russia-Very-Hostile-To-Those-Damn-Ruskies or broke it into dozens of princedoms, but we are dealing with millions of humans who speak mutually intelligible language (something which is definitely not the case with Finno-Ugric tribes) and able to exploit territory's resources as much as any other contemporaries can (again, that can't be said about Finno-Ugric tribes of the day). People who are limited in their Southbound and Westbound push by the hostile neighbours and equally (or more) poweful neighbours. Would not you need something equally organized and numerous to repel it? Slavs were pushing Finns around since pre-history, see Novgorod (area colonized before first historical records but not early enough for Slavs to assimilate local Finns fully). And even simple Slavic tribal union (of pre-Varangian vintage) was powerful enough to get what it needed from OTL Finns. That's why I said that we need ATL Finns. More advanced economically, to support bigger population.
 
You know, I don't care about Russia in it's present shape and form (which is really remnant of Mongolian invasion, which managed to grow enormously due to favourable location). But what we're dealing with here is Slavic expansion. Call the country Ukraine, Poland, call it Anti-Russia-Very-Hostile-To-Those-Damn-Ruskies or broke it into dozens of princedoms, but we are dealing with millions of humans who speak mutually intelligible language (something which is definitely not the case with Finno-Ugric tribes) and able to exploit territory's resources as much as any other contemporaries can (again, that can't be said about Finno-Ugric tribes of the day). People who are limited in their Southbound and Westbound push by the hostile neighbours and equally (or more) poweful neighbours. Would not you need something equally organized and numerous to repel it? Slavs were pushing Finns around since pre-history, see Novgorod (area colonized before first historical records but not early enough for Slavs to assimilate local Finns fully). And even simple Slavic tribal union (of pre-Varangian vintage) was powerful enough to get what it needed from OTL Finns. That's why I said that we need ATL Finns. More advanced economically, to support bigger population.
My point was that the rise or fall of nation depends not on language or origin, Slavic or Finnish, but on environment and dominance of Slavs is not predetermined.

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My point was that the rise or fall of nation depends not on language or origin
Allmighty forbid, I never said such a thing!@ Language remark was just to underscore the point that it is easier to unite with someone whose language you understand.
dominance of Slavs is not predetermined.
Honest? As soon as the other side is not more numerous or vastly better organized, it is. Slavs encountered better organized Germans and were eaten alive in 300 odd years in Westernmost area of their wanderung. But relatively few and unorganized OTL Finns never had a chance.
 
Allmighty forbid, I never said such a thing!@ Language remark was just to underscore the point that it is easier to unite with someone whose language you understand.
Honest? As soon as the other side is not more numerous or vastly better organized, it is. Slavs encountered better organized Germans and were eaten alive in 300 odd years in Westernmost area of their wanderung. But relatively few and unorganized OTL Finns never had a chance.
I agree. But taking your example Germans were stopped when Slavs become organized. My initial point was that if Fins get organized they could stop Slavic expansion.
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But it probably would not butterfly away the East-West Schism.

Vladimir's conversion was in 1015 IOTL, forty years before the schism. With a POD centuries before even that, it is likely that the OTL schism will be butterflied away too. That's not to say it won't happen at a later date, but the result will be different...
 

Philip

Donor
With a POD centuries before even that, it is likely that the OTL schism will be butterflied away too. That's not to say it won't happen at a later date, but the result will be different...

At a different date and under other circumstances seems likely. Removing it completely seems unlikely unless the PoD come before Augustine (or thereabouts).
 
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