Pagan Europe

Personally, I always envisaged the Mediterranean world ending up a bit like China without Christianity. Multiple philosophical schools overlaying localised folk paganism, possibly with a semi-divine monarchy, and with significant influence on its neighbours. If a concept like the mandate of heaven arises, and the concept of Romanitas endures, you could see a persistant Roman Empire, occasionally breaking up into regional kingdoms when a dynasty falls, but always reuniting, and the semidivinity of the Emperor and the rituals he'd need to perform as Pontifex Maximus would become a crucial ideological glue.
Would that make Northern Europe equivalents of Korea, Japan, Vietnam, etc. as strongly culturally influenced yet (almost) always outside the Empire? Although the main problem with that would come as Northern Europe inevitably develops given increasing political centralization and more plows to truly access the rich soils there.
 
Would that make Northern Europe equivalents of Korea, Japan, Vietnam, etc. as strongly culturally influenced yet (almost) always outside the Empire? Although the main problem with that would come as Northern Europe inevitably develops given increasing political centralization and more plows to truly access the rich soils there.
I reckon so. The Roman Empire's core might shift Northward or Eastward or Westward over time, but the idea of Rome would endure, much as Chinese dynasties have ebbed and flowed and moved about. It's possible that a strong centralised empire could also form in the North, around the Baltic Sea or the North Sea or the Rhine or some other feature, but it's equally possible that there'd instead be various smaller kingdoms paying tribute and acknowledging the hegemony of Rome, or some combination thereof.
 
As usual, this massively depends on the POD in question.

What I will adress is the most commonly suggested rival in the form of Mithraism.

In short, we really don't know anything significant about Mithraism, including how popular it was. Wikipedia is often looked to, but it doesn't well represent Mithraism at all. We know for instance that it was widespread but that isn't the same as it being popular, particularly when we are talking about a mystery cult. A good example would be Alchemy in the medieval world, being very wide spread but only actually practiced by few people.

Afaik, a lot of the misconceptions surrounding Mithraism actually come from some oytright fabrications pushed by Bill Maher.

In short, whilst we can suppose the evolution off or spread of other religions, Mithraism is actually one of the worst candidates because there is virtually no real information to go on.
 
As usual, this massively depends on the POD in question.

What I will adress is the most commonly suggested rival in the form of Mithraism.

In short, we really don't know anything significant about Mithraism, including how popular it was. Wikipedia is often looked to, but it doesn't well represent Mithraism at all. We know for instance that it was widespread but that isn't the same as it being popular, particularly when we are talking about a mystery cult. A good example would be Alchemy in the medieval world, being very wide spread but only actually practiced by few people.

Afaik, a lot of the misconceptions surrounding Mithraism actually come from some oytright fabrications pushed by Bill Maher.

In short, whilst we can suppose the evolution off or spread of other religions, Mithraism is actually one of the worst candidates because there is virtually no real information to go on.
Tbh based on what we actually know about mithraism it seems more like an ancient freemason society than a faith with theologians
 
What would happen if Paganism is to remain the dominant religion of Europe and Christianity never rises? How will things change with a pagan Europe? What would the cultures of the Romans, Greeks, Slavs, Germanics, Nordic, and Celts be like? Are there any butterflies and byproducts of this?
Judaistic/Abrahamic thoughts still exists.
 
Roman Religion is going to perhaps coalesce into a Sun-centered religion that synthesizes Sol Invictus with Jupiter while keeping the Emperor as a living demigod. Dynasties could rise and fall with a Roman equivalent of the Mandate of Heaven. Yet shrines to Epona, Mithra, Isis, and Serapis exist. So a form of Monotheism with henotheistic tendencies.

A plausible scenario, I feel.

I could see Buddhist Rome. It would take a longshot, but if you can restart Buddhist evangelization you might be able to squeak it out.

Would Buddhism clash with the Roman Ethnos? Maybe its just me, but it seems too... fatalistic and world-detached for Romans. Could do better with greeks.

Personally, I always envisaged the Mediterranean world ending up a bit like China without Christianity. Multiple philosophical schools overlaying localised folk paganism, possibly with a semi-divine monarchy, and with significant influence on its neighbours. If a concept like the mandate of heaven arises, and the concept of Romanitas endures, you could see a persistant Roman Empire, occasionally breaking up into regional kingdoms when a dynasty falls, but always reuniting, and the semidivinity of the Emperor and the rituals he'd need to perform as Pontifex Maximus would become a crucial ideological glue.

A quite interesting scenario.

A persistent Roman Empire would be interesting, althrough I'm not sure they would be able to keep all the OTL Roman land,, because European geography is far more full of mountains and hills than China's. Rome took over because everyone else was too weak, disorganized or primitive to do so. That changes in a post-roman world.

Britain for one I can't see them retaining.

One possible cause for a more durable Rome might be a Roman Conquest of Germania, allowing the Empire a smaller border to watch over and garrison. The "Mongolia" of Rome then becomes Scandinavia, the rest of Magna Germania and the Steppes.
 
The cult of Sol Invictus was very popular in the Imperial armies at the same time as the rise of Christianity and Constantine. Perhaps Sol and Jupiter would be combined into one god and serve as the official state religion of Rome and after the fall of the empire may be adopted by the new arrivals
Yes, and what about the other gods?
 
What would happen if Paganism is to remain the dominant religion of Europe and Christianity never rises? How will things change with a pagan Europe? What would the cultures of the Romans, Greeks, Slavs, Germanics, Nordic, and Celts be like? Are there any butterflies and byproducts of this?
The classical paganism of the Roman world was on the way out with or without Christianity. The increase in Mystery Cults in the third century and efforts to consolidate of the traditional Roman Pantheon demonstrate this pretty clearly. Without Christianity, you could easily see the continued centralization of the Roman Pantheon under Sol Invictus, or perhaps without having to compete with Christianity, you get Manichaeism taking its place.
 
The classical paganism of the Roman world was on the way out with or without Christianity. The increase in Mystery Cults in the third century and efforts to consolidate of the traditional Roman Pantheon demonstrate this pretty clearly. Without Christianity, you could easily see the continued centralization of the Roman Pantheon under Sol Invictus, or perhaps without having to compete with Christianity, you get Manichaeism taking its place.
Given how long it took to stamp out paganism, and the fact that the Church and Roman state felt they had to, suggests that this probably isn't true. I think Roman paganism was evolving, much as Hinduism, Shinto, Chinese religion and other polytheistic religions evolve over time. Hinduism has changed hugely from what is described in the Vedas, but Hinduism hasn't "gone out", it's just changed. Polytheistic "paganisms" aren't static or dogmatic like Christianity or Islam, they change to suit their environment and happily syncretise with each other. After all, if you already have 100 gods, what's another couple?
 
Neither of which are static either
Fair point. But they are far easier to define and have a clear concept of orthodoxy/heterodoxy, which most polytheisms don't. A Roman pagan didn't really have a concept of heresy, there was just the way Romans did things (obviously, to them, the correct one) and the way others did things (the wrong way, for the Romans), but there were no "correct" gods, just the gods in a particular area. Obviously gods like Hapi, the god of the Nile flood, were not portable and had no particular conflict with non-Egyptian paganisms, while gods like Anubis were syncretised with roughly equivalent gods like Hermes/Mercury. The idea that in Rome you'd pray to Iupiter for rain, but if you travelled to Greece you'd pray to Zeus, and if you traveled to Syria you'd pray to Ba'al Hamon, wasn't really a difficult one, especially if you weren't a philosopher. Some gods, like Isis, travelled well and slotted well enough into other pantheons. This was hardly the first time the Romans had syncretised their religion, the classical Roman pantheon was composed of Etruscan, Greek and native Latin deities.
 
Yes, and what about the other gods?

Worship would probably decline until it died out. There are similar examples of this occurring in other pantheons

The classical paganism of the Roman world was on the way out with or without Christianity. The increase in Mystery Cults in the third century and efforts to consolidate of the traditional Roman Pantheon demonstrate this pretty clearly. Without Christianity, you could easily see the continued centralization of the Roman Pantheon under Sol Invictus, or perhaps without having to compete with Christianity, you get Manichaeism taking its place.

The one problem with Manichaeism is that it originated in Persia and thus was seen as subversive by the authorities
 
The one problem with Manichaeism is that it originated in Persia and thus was seen as subversive by the authorities
True, after all the Manichaean were also targeted by Diocletian during his persecutions, but the faith still managed to grow a sizable following across the empire, especially in Gaul, and without Christianity it'll almost certainly have a larger number of followers. A usurper general based out of Gaul who is either a Manichaen or wants to court support from Manichaens could easily be a Constantine-like figure for the faith.
 
There is no driving point for colonialism.

'god' was a justification, but one could easily have the various other religions that exist be used.

"the people here are clearly worshipers of Apep, with their human sacrifices that are forbidden as being one a vile that goes against Ma'at. This is why we conquered the so called Aztec Empire, and it was through our conquest that we have brought them out of the darkness of Apep and into the light of Ra and Horus and with this civilization" - an egyptian explaining why they conquered the Aztec Empire :p

As for if classical polytheism would die out or fade away, I am biased(considering that I am a polytheist) but I would say no, especially if the POD is further back in time.
 
Just varying kinds of it across. ITTL Christianity never rises in Europe.
TBH I think even without Christianity Judaism would have split into 2 branches - one practiced mostly in Judea, and one based on Hellenistic Judaism that would be found in the diaspora, and that would be much more accommodating of Greek cultural practices (ie no circumcision). Circumcision was a big obstacle to Greek conversions to Judaism - and to Jewish integration into Hellenistic society - because the Greeks frowned heavily on mutilations and thought them abhorrent.
It was already where Hellenistic Judaism was headed even without Jesus and Saul of Tarsus to speed up the process, because the Hellenistic Jews of the diaspora wanted integration into Hellenistic society but that was made difficults by some of their practices, notably circumcision. As a result, Hellenistic Judaism was already more liberal in its practices than its Judean counterpart and it's likely that would only have increased with time.
So it's likely that a form of Judaism more palatable to Greek society would have emerged in the diaspora even without Jesus. And considering how attractive Judaism seemed to be to the pagans of the Mediterranean (there was a whole class of converts to Judaism, known as the proselytes) even with circumcision, it seems fair to say that this form of Hellenistic Judaism would have been very successful, similarly to Christianity. As successful, perhaps not, but in a "no Christianity" scenario one shouldn't forget the circumstances that led to its rise, and those haven't disappeared.
 
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Fair point. But they are far easier to define and have a clear concept of orthodoxy/heterodoxy, which most polytheisms don't. A Roman pagan didn't really have a concept of heresy, there was just the way Romans did things (obviously, to them, the correct one) and the way others did things (the wrong way, for the Romans), but there were no "correct" gods, just the gods in a particular area. Obviously gods like Hapi, the god of the Nile flood, were not portable and had no particular conflict with non-Egyptian paganisms, while gods like Anubis were syncretised with roughly equivalent gods like Hermes/Mercury. The idea that in Rome you'd pray to Iupiter for rain, but if you travelled to Greece you'd pray to Zeus, and if you traveled to Syria you'd pray to Ba'al Hamon, wasn't really a difficult one, especially if you weren't a philosopher. Some gods, like Isis, travelled well and slotted well enough into other pantheons. This was hardly the first time the Romans had syncretised their religion, the classical Roman pantheon was composed of Etruscan, Greek and native Latin deities.

Christianity took hundreds of years to find a proper definition of Orthodoxy and Heresy. In this world, there is no guarantee that any form of that would ever exist. And from my knowledge, the main reason rome tended to fuse their gods with the others was to essentially help keep the populations from rebelling its the same concept of the early saints (The Celtic Goddess Brigid becomes Saint Bridgette).
 

Philip

Donor
Akin to Brahmism in India?

Sol Invictus was popular in some lines of Neoplatonism and associated with either The One or the first emanation of The One. Julian's religious reforms reflected this.

Connections between Brahmism and (Neo)Platonism are up for debate.
 
One idea I had is that in the absence of the Rome and their conquest of much of the Celtic world, and subsequent destruction of much of their culture, the Celtic religion could have evolved into a European Hinduism with the Druids evolving into a theological caste like the Brahmins, absorbing philosophical influences from the Greeks and syncretising the various gods and traditions of the non-Celtic Iberian, Germanic and Italic peoples similar to how Hinduism arose as a synthesis of Dravidian and Indo-Aryan religious practices.

Tbh based on what we actually know about mithraism it seems more like an ancient freemason society than a faith with theologians

Basically how a lot of mystery cults worked.
 
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