What if the Japanese declaration of war (AKA a sneak attack) came three months later, and with an actual attack on Los Angeles?
Pacific Pearls
- Thread starter MittleGittle
- Start date
-
- Tags
- japan los angeles pearl harbor ww2
Garrison
Donor
The Kido Butai could barely carry enough fuel to reach Pearl Harbour, there is no way they can reach LA which is 2500 miles from Hawaii.
Three months later the U.S. is a hair more prepared in general, and the British are probably in better shape for whatever they decide to send as Force Z.
And the Japanese have no chance of attacking Los Angeles, besides maybe submarine shelling.
And the Japanese have no chance of attacking Los Angeles, besides maybe submarine shelling.
I guess you could launch an attack with submarine based seaplanes (they had a few submarines that carried planes), maybe launch a few more seaplanes covertly from a merchant ship. The most damage that will be done is to Americans of Japanese descent. If you think things were bad for them OTL, this will be worse.
Driftless
Donor
Submarine attack wouldn't do much physical damage, but it would absolutely rattle the hell out of the locals and their politicians. (Kinda like a low grade Doolittle Raid). Also, IMO, Zheng He is correct about the far worse treatment of Japanese-Americans too.
BTW, this is the gist of the comedy movie "1941". (Underated as a comedy and underated for the great John Williams score)
Last edited:
LA had the oil industry so it was definitely hugely important. I believe there are a few oil-related facilities either within distance of the coast (for a submarine to shell it) or have seaplanes easily bomb. The planes could cause further damage by crashing into buildings when they're finished, since they have almost no chance of making it back to Japan alive.
In terms of shock I think it would cause about the same effect on the US public but for a lot less gain. If they're lucky their subs might manage to sink a ship or two sent to hunt them down. A few damaged oil facilities and other buildings and maybe 100-200 dead (mostly civilians) isn't much compared to killing 2,000 sailors and sinking a few battleships. This could be launched in tandem with Pearl Harbor for maximum effect, since the public would hear about Pearl Harbor being bombed and then immediately after hear news that California is also being bombed. Assuming the assets are available of course.
Though, putting aside the actual attack, one does wonder just how much stronger are the Allies (Brit Commonwealth and Dutch) in the Pacific ITTL March '42?
McPherson
Banned
In MARCH 1942 off the Western Sea Frontier? Who passed around the opium and strangled Genda? The second quickest way for the IJN to mass scuttle is to try that one.
The Japs still invade Indonesia and the European Colonies, but not the Philippines. After securing the more strategic areas they swing east and bomb Pearl Harbour like in OTL, but also shell Los Angeles with Submarine guns and a few detached Destroyers and Planes. To get in range they install fuel tanks on some Aircraft Carriers. A submarine even shells the Golden Gate Bridge.
There are more targets in the Bay Area than at this time, oil means nothing to the US and the Japanese know it. Here is a short list of targets in the Bay Area:
San Francisco Mint, yeah an actual mint as in money and gold there.
Golden Gate Bridge and Bay Bridge, don’t have to drop them just damage and people freak.
Presidio Army Base, it had the Western Defense Command of the whole west coast there.
Alameda Carrier dock
Moffet Field
Mare Island Ship yard that actually builds ships and not just repair them. BB California built there.
Oakland Army base. Transit point for troops going overseas.
Southern Pacific RR had lot of installations around the area including inside SF proper, big yards and engine facilities.
Western Pacific and Santa Fe RR in the East Bay.
Want to scare folks? Imagine the headlines if the mint is hit.
San Francisco Mint, yeah an actual mint as in money and gold there.
Golden Gate Bridge and Bay Bridge, don’t have to drop them just damage and people freak.
Presidio Army Base, it had the Western Defense Command of the whole west coast there.
Alameda Carrier dock
Moffet Field
Mare Island Ship yard that actually builds ships and not just repair them. BB California built there.
Oakland Army base. Transit point for troops going overseas.
Southern Pacific RR had lot of installations around the area including inside SF proper, big yards and engine facilities.
Western Pacific and Santa Fe RR in the East Bay.
Want to scare folks? Imagine the headlines if the mint is hit.
You mean before or after their destroyers and cruisers run out of fuel and they have to ask for a tow? Even the carriers aren't going to make it if they have to put wind over the deck. Shokaku and Zuikaku capped out at around 10,000 miles, the others were all under 11,000 and that is straight at 18 knots, none of this turning into the wind and cranking it up to 30 knots to put wind over the deck to conduct flight operations.
It is logistically impossible for the Japanese to mount that sort of a raid. Before lase 1944 it would have been impossible for any fleet on Earth to have managed it, even then the U.S. would have been hard pressed to put a six carrier strike force better than 5,000 miles from the nearest support base. About the longest jump the U.S. made in real force was about 1,500 miles, from the Marianas and Northern Australia to the Philippines.
IOTL they had to DECK LOAD barrels of fuel on the destroyers, on the cruisers and on at least one CARRIER (the Akagi, IIRC) ti get them enough range to pull off the Pearl Harbor Raid. If they had stayed off Oahu for an extra day they would have had to either abandon most of their destroyers or tried to tow them out (at 10 knots or so) and hope they didn't capsize.
It has been point out to me that saying that the term "Japs" is an ethnic slur it judging the whole world on West Coast U.S. standards, so I will avoid that. I will, however say, quite strongly, that it IS a term that is quite offensive to a number of members here. As such it should, in most circumstances, be avoided.
The Japanese had a number of submarines in the fleet that could each carry a small seaplane. Have them decide to start the war with a raid like the one they had planned for September 1945. If they manage to pull this off, well think about how the USA prosecuted its war against Japan OTL and multiply that by several orders of magnitude:
en.wikipedia.org
Operation PX - Wikipedia
The coastline in and around San Francisco was filled with coastal defense forts with guns to 16”. They started dismantling forts in 1943
If Pearl was not ready the Bay Area was literally told no attack possible, keep up normal peace time activities. Plus not a lot of guns were manned at this time especially on a Sunday. 16” guns mean nothing when you are attacking with aircraft from 4 to 5 times the longest ranged gun. Checking the Coast Defense Study Group website, there is not an exceptional amount of forts and armaments for the Bay Area.
Even using sub launched planes to get a few hits in would cause trouble. Like I said, imagine the headlines if the mint got bombed.
The Japanese had a number of submarines in the fleet that could each carry a small seaplane. Have them decide to start the war with a raid like the one they had planned for September 1945. If they manage to pull this off, well think about how the USA prosecuted its war against Japan OTL and multiply that by several orders of magnitude:
Operation PX - Wikipedia
Those submarine sea planes had a max payload of like less then 100 pounds and very short range. The I400's that appeared later had longer range and could carry slightly more capable sea planes still had a max payload of like 250 pounds in bombs.
Considering the accuracy of most WW2 planes you'd be looking at minimal if any real damage. And you're looking at a real decent chance of losing much of the sub force involved for no real damage.
We were on Kodiak with family of friends from 173rd LRRP. The military spent many man years of effort to put in an 8” battery at Cheniak covering Kodiak harbor. By yhe time the concrete was dry and Guns registered, it was realized that Japan did not have ability to raid much less invade so they blew the model 1890 guns in place.
second best place we have ever spent in. 15 years of RVing. Could hear the whales breaching and were “taunted” by SeaOtters eating salmon
Last edited: