P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

[Deleted member 1487]

I can't remember which book I read it in if you recall in you're Do19 thread I mentioned that the majority of my books have been sitting in storage for the past five years. But I've been meaning to dig em out. Ill try to get to em this week and if I can find the book Ill PM you the information.

Much obliged. Take your time, I'm in no rush.

Alright, let's talk about the effect of the Do335 as a daylight Destroyer on USAAC bombers, as we are at least 1 year or more from the P51D and it was slower by about 40mph than the Do335 with the DB603 engines.

The Destroyer version of the Do335 had only one crew member instead of the two of the Me410 and Bf110 or any other Destroyer types.
It will be much more survivable than any historic models, which suffered horrible attrition rates.

Can the daylight bomber offensive be shut down and night intruder versions cause major damage to the RAF to perhaps prevent the Hamburg firestorm?

 

[MattII]

There is no certainty that the P59 if developed in 1940/41 would end up as a earlier Do335. It would probably be designed with a larger airframe for an internal bomload, and start with DB601 engines.

Shallow bomb-bay though, if it could fit one at all. IMO inevitably someone would notice this, and would realise what a brilliant heavy fighter it would make.

 

[cortz#9]

Much obliged. Take your time, I'm in no rush.

Alright, let's talk about the effect of the Do335 as a daylight Destroyer on USAAC bombers, as we are at least 1 year or more from the P51D and it was slower by about 40mph than the Do335 with the DB603 engines.

The Destroyer version of the Do335 had only one crew member instead of the two of the Me410 and Bf110 or any other Destroyer types.
It will be much more survivable than any historic models, which suffered horrible attrition rates.

Can the daylight bomber offensive be shut down and night intruder versions cause major damage to the RAF to perhaps prevent the Hamburg firestorm?

Well I believe the magic number here is 50 this was the number of bomber losses per mission that allied Air command considered too high. The Do335 was a heavy hitting aircraft. So let’s estimate that for every 4 Do335 that makes a firing pass at a bomber gives us one kill or one bomber that’s so badly damaged that it has to be scrapped.
The Luftwaffe then needs to be able to put up about 200 Do335s to sortie against daylight bombing raids. This should give the Luftwaffe close to half the kills they need. Combine these with kills made by other fighter types & flak and the Germans come close to averaging 50 kills per mission more or less. Now I’m no mathematician this is just a very rough estimate. But I’m thinking if enough Do335, especially If heavily armed with multiple cannons this number is doable
I’m also thinking a Do 335 could carry up to three WfrGr 21 Rockets under each wing. This weapon system in 1943 could be enough to halt daylight bombing raids until long range fighters are available.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Well I believe the magic number here is 50 this was the number of bomber losses per mission that allied Air command considered too high. The Do335 was a heavy hitting aircraft. So let’s estimate that for every 4 Do335 that makes a firing pass at a bomber gives us one kill or one bomber that’s so badly damaged that it has to be scrapped.
The Luftwaffe then needs to be able to put about 200 Do335s to sortie against daylight bombing raids. This should give the Luftwaffe close to half the kills they need. Combine these with kills made by other fighter types & flak and the Germans come close to averaging 50 kills per mission more or less. Now I’m no mathematician this is just a very rough estimate. But I’m thinking if enough Do335, especially If heavily armed with multiple cannons this number is doable
I’m also thinking a Do 335 could carry up to three WfrGr 21 Rockets under each wing. This weapon system in 1943 could be enough to halt daylight bombing raids until long range fighters are available.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_335#Specifications_.28Do_335_A-0.29

Performance
Maximum speed: 474 mph (765 km/h)
Combat radius: 721 mi (1,160 km (half load))
Service ceiling: 37,400 ft (11,400 m)

1 × 30 mm (1.18 in) MK 103 cannon (as forward engine-mounted Motorkanone)
2 × 20 mm MG 151/20 cowl-mount, synchronized autocannons

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_410#Specifications_.28Me_410_A-1.29

Performance
Maximum speed: 624 km/h (388 mph)
Range: 2,300 km (1,400 mi) combat
Service ceiling: 10,000 m (32,800 ft)

Guns:
2 × 7.92 mm (.312 in) MG 17 machine guns with 1,000 rpg, firing forward
2 × 20 mm MG 151/20 cannons with 350 rpg, firing forward
2 × 13 mm (.51 in) MG 131 machine guns with 500 rpg, each firing rearward from FDSL 131/1B remote-operated turret, one per side

The major advantage to me is that the Do335 has heavier frontal firepower, a higher ceiling, and much better speed at less weight, less materials, less crew, and more survivability. Range might be a bit of an issue though. Still the 30mm was able to take down the B17 in a single pass with 2-4 hits IIRC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MK_103_cannon
The only known aircraft to be able to mount this heavy gun was the Do335. It had a high muzzle velocity than the later MK108 cannon and had more propellant. It likely do some nasty things when it hit those bombers and help breakup the boxes for single engine fighters to pick off, depending on fighter escorts. Of course the Do335 could take multiple passes on bombers as more holes appear in the boxes, the easier it is to shoot them down.

If kept going in 1940 it would be ready at the same time or before the Me410. Its success could butterfly away work on the Me410 by 1942 and let the inferior aircraft (by 1943) be scrapped, which is what Milch wanted, as he hated Messerschmidt and wanted to ruin him, and it would be a better aircraft that would keep the heavy fighter crews alive longer, hurt the USAAC more, and mean the Luftwaffe doesn't get worn down as much as early.

Quick passes firing their heavy guns while diving through bomber boxes (IIRC the bombers had a hard time hitting aircraft moving over 350-400 mph) faster than escorting fighters could follow, especially as the P51D wasn't available until 1944, though it was still slower than the Do335.

 

[AdA]

Heavy fighters in 1943?

In 1943 day raids were mostly unescorted B17 and B24. The extra speed of the Do335 was not really required, and uparmoured FW190s with two 20mm replaced with Mk108 30mm guns were arguably ideal for Fortress killing. Since the Do335 would use DB603, an earlier Dora FW190 with a single Mk103 firing throught the spinner and two MG131 would be ideal.
If the bomber boxes were escorted by P47, the Do335 would be able to make single pass high speed attacks and outrun pursuing Thunderbolts, but this was not really an ideal attack method.

 

[cortz#9]

I agree and I believe the Do 335 could carry a 30mm cannon in each wing or two 20mm guns in under wing gun pods for a total of up to seven cannons. Also when I mentioned other fighters I meant Fw190s or Me109s. not Me410s or other twin engine fighters.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

In 1943 day raids were mostly unescorted B17 and B24. The extra speed of the Do335 was not really required, and uparmoured FW190s with two 20mm replaced with Mk108 30mm guns were arguably ideal for Fortress killing. Since the Do335 would use DB603, an earlier Dora FW190 with a single Mk103 firing throught the spinner and two MG131 would be ideal.

If the bomber boxes were escorted by P47, the Do335 would be able to make single pass high speed attacks and outrun pursuing Thunderbolts, but this was not really an ideal attack method.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MK_103_cannon

The original specification for the weapon called for it to fit inside the engine mounting (possibly as a Motorkanone, firing through a hollow propeller hub) of aircraft, however the final weapon was too large and heavy to fit into small-size fighters like the Bf 109. Unless mounted on the aircraft's centerline, the asymmetric shock from the cannon's recoil tended to veer the aircraft off course. The only known usage of the original MK 103 in a Motorkanone fitment was in the Do 335. A modified version with a reduced-profile barrel - the MK 103M - was developed and possibly tested for possible use as a Motorkanone cannon on single-engine fighter planes such as the Bf-109K, but probably never saw active service. As a consequence, the MK 103 was largely restricted to the role of an air-to-ground weapon for use against armoured vehicles.

The only aircraft that historically did mount the Mk103 was the Do335, so that in itself makes the aircraft a boon to bomber-killer forces. It doesn't have to make passes at high speed, rather it can slow down and make more accurate shots with its heavy cannon.

High speed passes would just improve survivability, which, given the limited number of experienced pilots that were getting shot down increasingly more often, would help preserve forces for 1944 when the speed would be really critical. Before then it would be a stable gunship for the Mk103 and would be a far better investment than the Me410 and could be built up during the year 1943 for the coming year when its advantages would be necessary, rather than relying on the inferior Me410 and have them get shot down in droves.

 

[cortz#9]

In 1943 day raids were mostly unescorted B17 and B24. The extra speed of the Do335 was not really required, and uparmoured FW190s with two 20mm replaced with Mk108 30mm guns were arguably ideal for Fortress killing. Since the Do335 would use DB603, an earlier Dora FW190 with a single Mk103 firing throught the spinner and two MG131 would be ideal.
If the bomber boxes were escorted by P47, the Do335 would be able to make single pass high speed attacks and outrun pursuing Thunderbolts, but this was not really an ideal attack method.

No but the more cannons the better And Do 335 could carry more than the twice cannons
of an Fw190

 

[Deleted member 1487]

No but the more cannons the better And Do 335 could carry more than the twice cannons
of an Fw190

And rockets or bigger gun pods as needed like the Me410 which at one point mounted a 50mm gun externally.

 

[cortz#9]

And rockets or bigger gun pods as needed like the Me410 which at one point mounted a 50mm gun externally.

And as I mentioned earlier I think it's possible to put up to
two or three WrGr21 rockets on the Do 335

 

[Deleted member 1487]

And as I mentioned earlier I think it's possible to put up to
two or three WrGr21 rockets on the Do 335

That's why I mentioned it; you are right about that and it would work out nicely.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Youtube footage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK8ydLY5QHQ

Apparently there was a night fighter version and a bomber version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6ROSTqm2KQ

 

[miketr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK8ydLY5QHQ

I am concerned by some of the film wiking.

In some of the early film a Stammkennzeichen of VG+PH is visible on the aircraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_335#Survivors

I suspect but do not know this for sure that the film creator intermixed WW2 film with film from after its 1975 restoration at Dornier. The give away was the lack a swastika on the tail. That got me looking at the rest of the video and I suspect that transition effects were used to 'age' some of the video to make it look like old style black and white film.

So some of the video is well, I wouldn't say fake, but I would say that some of it isn't what it appears to be. So viewer beware.

Michael

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I am concerned by some of the film wiking.

In some of the early film a Stammkennzeichen of VG+PH is visible on the aircraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_335#Survivors

I suspect but do not know this for sure that the film creator intermixed WW2 film with film from after its 1975 restoration at Dornier. The give away was the lack a swastika on the tail. That got me looking at the rest of the video and I suspect that transition effects were used to 'age' some of the video to make it look like old style black and white film.

So some of the video is well, I wouldn't say fake, but I would say that some of it isn't what it appears to be. So viewer beware.

Michael

I should have mentioned that this was just to get an impression of 'what could have been' rather than what was. I don't mean to suggest all of what was there was historical, but it did provide a reference to what an earlier version could have been able to achieve had work continued as planned rather than stopping in 1940 and not being continued until 1943. As we know IOTL the aircraft was not operational and still was getting into production and training programs were just starting to be worked out as I understand it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_335

the Do 335 V1 first prototype, bearing the Stammkennzeichen (factory radio code) of CP+UA, flew on 26 October 1943

During these test flights V2 (W.Nr 230002), Stammkennzeichen CP+UB was completed and made its first flight on 31 December 1943

On 20 January 1944, V3 (W.Nr. 230004),Stammkennzeichen CP+UC

At least 16 prototype Do 335s were known to have flown (V1–V12, W.Nr 230001-230012 and Müster-series prototypes M13–M17, W.Nr 230013-230017) on a number of DB603 engines including the DB603A, A-2, G-0, E and E-1. The first preproduction Do 335 (A-0s) starting with W.Nr 240101, Stammkennzeichen VG+PG, were delivered in July 1944. Approximately 22 preproduction aircraft were thought to have been completed and flown before the end of the war, including approximately 11 A-0s converted to A-11s for training purposes.

Only one Do 335 survives today. The aircraft was the second preproduction Do 335 A-0, designated A-02, with construction number (Werknummer) 240102, and factory radio code registration, or Stammkennzeichen, of VG+PH. The aircraft was assembled at Dornier's plant in Oberpfaffenhofen (southern Germany) on 16 April 1945. It was captured by Allied forces at the plant on 22 April 1945. The aircraft was test flown from a grass runway at Oberwiesenfeld, near Munich, to Cherbourg, France while escorted by two P-51s. The Do 335 was easily able to out distance the escorting Mustangs and arrived at Cherbourg 45 minutes before the P-51s. VG+PH was one of two Do 335s to be shipped to the United States aboard the Royal Navy escort carrier HMS Reaper, along with other captured German aircraft, to be used for testing and evaluation under a USAAF program called "Operation Sea Horse". One Do 335 (registration FE-1012) went to the USAAF and was tested in early 1946 at Freeman Field, Indiana. Its fate is not recorded.

VG+PH went to the Navy for evaluation and was sent to the Test and Evaluation Center, Patuxent River Naval Air Station, Maryland. Following testing from 1945 to 1948, the aircraft languished in outside storage at Naval Air Station Norfolk. In 1961, it was donated to the Smithsonian's National Air Museum, though it remained in deteriorating condition at Norfolk for several more years before being moved the National Air & Space Museum's storage facility in Suitland, Maryland. In October 1974, VG+PH was returned to the Dornier plant in Oberpfaffenhofen, Germany (then building the Alpha Jet) for a complete restoration. In 1975, the aircraft was restored by Dornier employees, many of whom had worked on the airplane originally. They were amazed to find that the explosive charges built into the aircraft to blow off the tail fin and rear propeller in the event of an emergency were still on the aircraft and active 30 years later.
Following restoration the completed Do 335 was displayed at the Hanover, Germany Airshow from 1 May to 9 May 1976. After the air show, the aircraft was lent to the Deutsches Museum in Munich where it was on display, without a swastika on the dorsal vertical tail in accordance with German law, until 1986, when it was shipped back to Silver Hill, Maryland. VG+PH can be seen today in the Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center of the National Air & Space Museum alongside other unique late-war German aircraft such as the only known example of the Arado Ar 234B-2 Blitz jet recon-bomber, and the fully restored fuselage and tail surfaces of the only complete surviving Heinkel He 219A Uhu (Eagle-Owl) night fighter (the wings and engines/nacelles are still undergoing restoration).

Clearly much of the film comes from the postwar US evaluations of the Do335, as the PH designation was the unit the US captured and tested.

 

[miketr]

I should have mentioned that this was just to get an impression of 'what could have been' rather than what was. I don't mean to suggest all of what was there was historical, but it did provide a reference to what an earlier version could have been able to achieve had work continued as planned rather than stopping in 1940 and not being continued until 1943. As we know IOTL the aircraft was not operational and still was getting into production and training programs were just starting to be worked out as I understand it.

Wasn't saying that YOU were trying to pull a fast one. We know the aircraft actually flew during WW2 which is more than we can say about some of the Wunderwaffe talked about on the forum. Even then this is a Alt Hist discussion forum.

Its just that when I noticed the 'editing' of the video to make it look older it just set off an alarm bell in my head.


Michael

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I should post this from another forum where I'm discussing this too:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=192777&p=1733289#p1733289

BDV wrote:
But that means that the 210, the "uber-110" is cancelled. Why would Germany/Luftwaffe do that in favor of a completely untested and futuristic design?

Because by 1940-2 it was still a failed design. Probably its more likely that they would keep both projects going to see which would be ready first. The Do335, going by the OTL version of development, could be ready by 1943 for operations, as the prototype was first flown in late 1943 and was getting into production and training program development by April-May 1945. So that's about 18-20 months. The fighter version started in June-July to be designed, was ready by the end of 1943 for testing, and got into production in 1945 under serious production problems that probably delayed a 1944 production introduction date, as the bombing of industry in 1944 seriously delayed the design getting it components according to the posts of phylo_roadking.

So without those problems in 1940-42 it could get into production in late 1942-early 1943 and be combat operational in 1943. Design still needed to be worked out in 1940, so the first version would likely be a bomber until testing in 1941 revealed its potential for fighter adaptation. That gets us a fighter prototype in 1942 probably, though work on the bomber version probably yields important development data for the fighter version. By the end of 1942 or in the first half of 1943 it would be production ready, though by that time the Me410 would be ready and with several hundred Me210 airframes built and easily adaptable to the Me410, that would probably become operational first as a stop-gap for the Do335 fighter, which would supersede the Me410 when it is ready in the second half of 1943 for operations. Of course this is optimistic, so perhaps the Do335 won't be combat ready until early 1944...

Looking the TL of development over, this is a strong possibility.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_335#Development

In 1939, Dornier was busy working on the P.59 high-speed bomber project, which featured the tandem engine layout. In 1940, he commissioned a test aircraft, closely modeled on the airframe of the early versions of the Dornier Do 17 bomber but only 40% of the size of the larger bomber, and fitted with a retractable tricycle landing gear to validate his concept for turning the rear pusher propeller with an engine located far away from it and using a long driveshaft. This aircraft, the Göppingen Gö 9 showed no unforeseen difficulties with this arrangement, but work on the P.59 was stopped in early 1940 when Hermann Göring[citation needed] ordered the cancellation of all projects which would not be completed within a year or so.

In May 1942, Dornier submitted an updated version with a 1,000 kg (2,200 lb) bombload as the P.231, in response to a requirement for a single seat high-speed bomber/intruder. P.231 was selected as the winner after beating rival designs from Arado, Junkers, and Blohm & Voss development contract was awarded as the Do 335. In autumn 1942, Dornier was told that the Do 335 was no longer required, and instead a multi-role fighter based on the same general layout would be accepted. This delayed the prototype delivery as it was modified for the new role.

Fitted with DB 603A engines delivering 1,750 PS (1,287 kW, 1,726 hp) at takeoff, the Do 335 V1 first prototype, bearing the Stammkennzeichen (factory radio code) of CP+UA, flew on 26 October 1943 under the control of Flugkapitän Hans Dieterle, a regular Heinkel test pilot and later primary Dornier test pilot.

The bomber version could be operational in early-mid 1943, but the heavy fighter, fighter-bomber, gunship, and night fighter variants would probably take an extra 6 months or so.

 

[Thegn]

What if the P.59 project had not been cancelled in 1940 and was designed around the pull-push layout that powered the Do335??

What I wonder in this connection is why, when they decided to use 2 engines coupled in tandem to drive a single prop on the He-177, did no one think to set up 2 engines on each wing in a push-pull configuration, which arguably would have worked much better without all the engine fires? Not sure whether the airframe would have been capable of dive-bombing, but even Goering admitted that was a stupid idea anyway.

The Germans build almost 1200 He-177s, so the R&D money should have been there to at least test this.
Thegn.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

What I wonder in this connection is why, when they decided to use 2 engines coupled in tandem to drive a single prop on the He-177, did no one think to set up 2 engines on each wing in a push-pull configuration, which arguably would have worked much better without all the engine fires? Not sure whether the airframe would have been capable of dive-bombing, but even Goering admitted that was a stupid idea anyway.

The Germans build almost 1200 He-177s, so the R&D money should have been there to at least test this.
Thegn.

Dornier had the patent on the tandem technology. Perhaps the Do19 would have been better with the tandem engines too. Less drag, smaller wing area so even less drag, less materials and several working examples in his flying boats. The technology is pretty complicated though and makes maintenance more difficult. Construction is more difficult too, which reduces production numbers.

As to He177 problems, they tested the DB606 engines extensively with a He119 testbed without problems, then built the He177 prior to the dive requirement as a coupled engine to drive a large propellor for less drag and better performance. According to Heinkel if suggested building a four propellor model, a He177B, prototype to test the two configurations after redesigns from the dive requirement to see which was better, something that Udet denied due to cost. Of course Heinkel wrote this after the war when Udet and Goering weren't really in a position to respond with their own story, so it might just be an story to cover his butt.

Basically the engine issues were always 'just about to be fixed' and no one had any idea how long it would be before they were fixed...by the time they started testing the 4 prop configuration it was already 1943, so by the time it was ready for production, it was too late and there wasn't enough fuel left for them.

 

[AdA]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MK_103_cannon


The only aircraft that historically did mount the Mk103 was the Do335, so that in itself makes the aircraft a boon to bomber-killer forces. It doesn't have to make passes at high speed, rather it can slow down and make more accurate shots with its heavy cannon.

High speed passes would just improve survivability, which, given the limited number of experienced pilots that were getting shot down increasingly more often, would help preserve forces for 1944 when the speed would be really critical. Before then it would be a stable gunship for the Mk103 and would be a far better investment than the Me410 and could be built up during the year 1943 for the coming year when its advantages would be necessary, rather than relying on the inferior Me410 and have them get shot down in droves.

Don't trust wiki. The Mk103 was used on the Ta152C-3 (one), Ta152B-5 (three),Me410B-5 with the WB103 pack (two) FW190D-12R20 (two, w/r) FW190A-8/R3 (two, u/w)(the R3 pack was used on other A series as well) and even on the Bf109 in the rare K8 version. Some He219 versions packed 4...

 

[AdA]

Fighter uses

The Do335 was fast. But as a pure fighter once you get the DB603 and Jumo 213 engines, wich are crucial for the Do335 to work, you can use it on single engined fighters like the FW190D, or better still the Ta152. When you're facing Mustangs over home ground, dogfighting ability is more important than pure speed or range for fighters.