P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
  • Start date

Deleted member 1487

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_335
What if the P.59 project had not been cancelled in 1940 and was designed around the pull-push layout that powered the Do335?
The P.59 project was a high speed bomber project that would end up as an intruder aircraft, but could be adapted to all the roles filled by the Ju88, Bf110/Me210/Me410, and Ta154 or He219 historically and been faster than all of the above, while also taking about any engine for its front unit, while having to use a liquid cooled unit for its rear engine due to airflow issues.

I think that it could have been ready in 1943 in the high speed bomber, heavy fighter, night fighter, and destroyer roles with others perhaps there after (all weather intruder, fighter-bomber, ground attack, etc.). It could have conceivably used wood in its construction for some roles like that of bomber, night fighter and heavy fighter. It had hard points for additional gear too, so could add on bombs or gun pods as needed.

Basically it makes just about all of the two engine aircraft in the German arsenal redundant and can beat all of their performance too. So there won't be a need to manufacture the Me410 when its finally ready in 1943, nor the need for the various night fighter designs and can replace the aging Ju88 design.

Obviously this wouldn't win Germany the war by any stretch, but it would help massively for pilot survivability in the critical year that the Allied fighters gutted the last of the Luftwaffe and bad aircraft killed so many new and experience pilots. Of course the air war was already turning against Germany by this point, as the constant raiding of flight schools of instructors for pilots, like over Stalingrad in 1942-3, since 1940 had badly degraded the already inadequate training programs early in the war, so the Luftwaffe was already suffering badly from attrition, but the tide hadn't totally turned until 1943-early 1944.

Had this aircraft been available in operations at such a crucial point in the war, what would it have meant for the air war over Europe?
 
The war would probablt last a couple of months longer depending on the number they could field.
 
Night-fighter I'm doubtful of, the radar sets of the day were cruse things, big and bulky, which was why most night-fighters were twin-engined, so the whole nose pretty much could be given over to the things. And yes, this is going to come as a nasty surprise to the allies, and maybe one which forces them to divert resources away from bombers into fighters.
 

Deleted member 1487

I can't see working it on a bomber ...

Not sure what you mean by this.
Edit:
but as it had worked on bombers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_B-36
I assume you're objecting to the pusher part of the configuration obstructing bombs.
The bombs could be carried on the wings, but as far as having a bomb bay, perhaps bombing in a shallow dive/glide would prevent the problem? Of course I'm not an engineer or physicist, but wouldn't the rate of fall for bombs be faster than the bomber moves forward?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Anything? :confused:

The LW would enjoy a brief period of being able to overfly Allied positions in daytime without being intercepted. This was an ability they later enjoyed with the Ar243B-1. Would give them an useful recce capability but at a time, 1943, when it wasn't really that much need, the frontline being stable in Italy and D Day being a year away.
 
I believe the design had promise but they would also have to develop the ejection seat earlier as well for obvious reasons. Also they need to improve the frame to prevent corkscrewing a problem they had with the Do 335 were the front and rear of the plane would twist back and forth.
 
Do335?

There is no certainty that the P59 if developed in 1940/41 would end up as a earlier Do335. It would probably be designed with a larger airframe for an internal bomload, and start with DB601 engines. It would probably be close to the early Mosquito variants in performance, if not on usability.
 
What if the RLM had taken an interest in Lippish's Delta IV in 1932 ? They would have a lot more time to develop a suitable aircraft from this design.
 
What if the RLM had taken an interest in Lippish's Delta IV in 1932 ? They would have a lot more time to develop a suitable aircraft from this design.

I don't speak German, but I guess that's sort of what you were talking about?
Zerstörer Me 265

Als die Me 210 1941 in die Serienfertigung gegangen war, aber im Einsatz nicht befriedigte, schlug Prof. Lippisch, der damalige Leiter
der »Gruppe-L« in den Messerschmitt-Werken, vor, eine Neukonstruktion zu entwickeln, die viele Teile der Me 210 übernehmen sollte.

So entstand 1942 als Projekt die Lippisch LP-10, die anschließend von Ingenieur Stender durchkonstruiert wurde
und die dann die Bezeich­nung Me 265 erhielt.

Das Muster wurde als zweisitziger Zerstörer in schwanzloser Bauart ausgelegt.

Aus der Ferti­gung der Me 210 sollten das Rumpf-Vorderteil, Teile des Seitenleitwerkes,
die gesamte Bewaffnungsanlage und zahl­reiche Ausrüstungsteile übernommen werden.

Flügel und Rumpf-Hinterteil waren vollständig neu durchkon­struiert. Ebenso Rumpf-Hinterteil und Fahrwerk.

Als Antrieb waren DB 603 vorgesehen, die sowieso für eine spätere Entwicklungsstufe der Me 210 verwendet werden sollten.

Zu einer Bauausführung der Me 265 kam es nicht, weil der Entwurf zugunsten der Me 410, ebenfalls mit DB 603,
fallen gelassen wurde, da bei der konventionellen Me 410 wesentlich mehr Bauteile der Me 210 übernommen werden konnten.

3bm265.jpg


Spannweite: 17,4 Meter
Länge: 10 Meter
Fläche: 45 m2
Leergewicht: 6,3 Tonnen
Fluggewicht 11 Tonnen

Flügel: Freitragender Schulter-Decker. Pfeilflügel. Pfeilung im Flü­gel-Mittelbereich wenig geringer als außen.
Hinterkante des Mittel­flügels fast gerade, in den Außenteilen weit nach hinten ausgewölbt und die Querruder einschließend.
Spreiz-Klappen im Flügel-Mittelteil, durch Motorengondeln und Rumpf geteilt. Flügelaufbau aus Ganz­metall.


Rumpf: Rumpf als kurze Gondel in Ganzmetall-Schalenbauweise.
Vorderteil aus Me 210-Komponenten, Hinterteil zur Seitenflosse in eine senkrechte Schneide auslaufend.


Leitwerk: Da schwanzlose Auslegung nur normales Seitenleitwerk, unter die Rumpf-Unterkante als Kielflosse durchgezogen.

Seitenruder mit Trimm-Klappe. Höhenruder mit dem Querruder kombiniert im Außenflügel.


Fahrwerk: Einziehbares Dreirad-Fahrgestell.
Haupträder nach innen in den Flügel einklappbar, Bugrad nach hinten unter den Rumpf-Bug.


Triebwerk: Zwei Daimler-Benz DB 603 flüssigkeitsgekühlte Zwölf­zylinder -A-Motoren mit 2 x 1.745 PS Startleistung.

In Druckanord­nung im Flügel eingebaut: Vierblatt-Verstell-Luftschrauben.

Besatzung: 2 Mann hintereinander Rücken an Rücken unter lang­gezogener Abdeckhaube im Rumpf-Bug.


Militärische Ausrüstung: Bewaffnung bestehend aus 2 x 20 mm MG 151/20 und 2 x 7,9 mm MG 17 starr im Rumpf-Bug
sowie 2 x 13 mm MG 131 in beweglichen Gondeln an den Rumpf-Seitenwänden, durch den Beobachter ferngesteuert nach hinten schießend.

Bomben-Zu­ladung als Innen-Last in einem langen Bombenschacht unter dem Rumpf.

Höchstgeschwindigkeit: 674 km/h
 
another PushPull design

The twin tail boons might cancel the advantages of the in line design, but they do make great gun mounts
icon12.gif


Schnellbomber Ju EF 112

Dieser Schnellbomber war ein Tiefdecker mit Bugradfahrwerk und wurde im Dezember 1942 projektiert.

Triebwerk: 2 Jumo 211 J, eines vor, das andere hinter dem Cockpit angeordnet. Die vierblättrigen Luftschrauben wurden koaxial gegenläufig angetrieben. Es wurde jeweils eine einsitzige und eine zweisitzige Version geplant.

gmj12-9.jpg


Die Bewaffnung bestand aus zwei MK 103 30 mm-Kanonen. Dazu konnte die EF 112 noch vier R 100 Luftkampfraketen mitführen.

Spannweite: 12,8 Meter
Länge: 10,7 Meter
Höhe: 4,1 Meter
Bombenlast: 0,5 Tonnen

Höchstgeschwindigkeit: 760 km/h

Das Projekt konnte beim RLM keine Interesse wecken
 
Last edited:
I don't speak German, but I guess that's sort of what you were talking about?
Zerstörer Me 265



No the Delta IV was a racer designed by Alexander Lippish in 1932. It was built to compete in the European Rally of 1932. it was built for pure speed and was basically a cockpit with a motor in front and one in the rear. It had a folding delta wing and was a canard design. Unfortunately it crashed on it's test flight and Lippish's sponsor lost interest. It was a radical design but with military backing it might've been developed into something with potential.
 
I don't speak German, but I guess that's sort of what you were talking about?
Zerstörer Me 265



No the Delta IV was a racer designed by Alexander Lippish in 1932. It was built to compete in the European Rally of 1932. it was built for pure speed and was basically a cockpit with a motor in front and one in the rear. It had a folding delta wing and was a canard design. Unfortunately it crashed on it's test flight and Lippish's sponsor lost interest. It was a radical design but with military backing it might've been developed into something with potential.
You can see pics of it here http://www.nurflugel.com/Nurflugel/Lippisch_Nurflugels/lippisch_nurflugels.html
 
I don't speak German, but I guess that's sort of what you were talking about?
Zerstörer Me 265



No the Delta IV was a racer designed by Alexander Lippish in 1932. It was built to compete in the European Rally of 1932. it was built for pure speed and was basically a cockpit with a motor in front and one in the rear. It had a folding delta wing and was a canard design. Unfortunately it crashed on it's test flight and Lippish's sponsor lost interest. It was a radical design but with military backing it might've been developed into something with potential.

I know. I was looking for early possible military aplications of lippish signature delta flying wing designs.
 
Me 265 Luft 46 page

[SIZE=+2]Messerschmitt Me 265[/SIZE]
3bm265.jpg
Dr. Alexander Lippisch moved to the Messerschmitt Aircraft Company in Augsburg on January 2, 1939. He also took many of his closest coworkers, including Engineer Stender, who worked on the design of the project Li P.10 in the autumn of 1942, which eventually became the Messerschmitt Me 265 (although some sources state that this number was not an official RLM designation). This design was to use as many of the components as possible of the Messerschmitt Me 210. The Me 265, along with the Me 329 project which evolved from the P.04 project, were developed for comparison with the Me 410.
The Me 265 was designed to be a tailless, twin-engine, twin-seat "Zerstörer" (destroyer) aircraft. The wing was of a delta shape, and was mounted high on the fuselage. The wing was swept a little more on the outer wing panels than the inner edges, and was constructed entirely of metal. A single fin and rudder (with a trim tab) was provided. The fuselage front was taken from the Me 210, and the lower tail was bulged downwards to keep the propellers from striking the ground on takeoff. Two Daimler Benz DB 603 liquid-cooled 12 cylinder engines with 1745 horsepower were built into the rear of the wing, driving four-bladed propellers. The main wheels retracted inwards towards the fuselage, and the nose wheel retracted to the rear. Two men sat back-to-back in the cockpit, where the radio operator/observer remotely controlled the two MG 131 13 mm machine guns, located on the rear fuselage sides (also taken from the Me 210, and later used on the Me 410). Forward firing armament consisted of 2 MG 151/20 20mm cannon and two MG 17 7.9mm machine guns. A long bomb bay was located under the fuselage. This design was not followed to completion because the Me 410 was chosen for series production.

I dont see much earlier credible possibilities for lippish designs to make it into production as military aircraft. this would have looked a lot cooler than the Me410
icon6.gif
 
I know. I was looking for early possible military aplications of lippish signature delta flying wing designs.
Ah I see I thought since it was in German you had just made a simple mistake. my bad.
:eek: But I was thinking more the push-pull configuration. An early Zestorer type which would then lead to other AC types from other firms once the concept had been proven.
 
[SIZE=+2]Messerschmitt Me 265[/SIZE]
3bm265.jpg


I dont see much earlier credible possibilities for lippish designs to make it into production as military aircraft. this would have looked a lot cooler than the Me410
icon6.gif
I totally agree with you that is a very cool looking plane. And I'm not saying the Delta IV itself would be a practical military aircraft. I'm just saying that if it had been developed to the point were it was a proven concept(the push-pull config.) then it could have led to types like the Do P.59 and Me 265 being developed earlier and accepted by the Luftwaffe. The Delta IV started life in 1932 that's a good head start for this concept. But yeah you got what I was saying I'm the one who got confused. Sorry.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 1487

I believe the design had promise but they would also have to develop the ejection seat earlier as well for obvious reasons. Also they need to improve the frame to prevent corkscrewing a problem they had with the Do 335 were the front and rear of the plane would twist back and forth.

Perhaps the ejector seat research (not sure when it began) would be started earlier if there is an earlier need?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ejection_seat
The first ejection seats were developed independently during World War II by Heinkel and SAAB. Early models were powered by compressed air and the first aircraft to be fitted with such a system was the Heinkel He 280 prototype jet-engined fighter in 1940. One of the He 280 test pilots, Helmut Schenk, became the first person to escape from a stricken aircraft with an ejection seat on 13 January 1942 after his control surfaces iced up and became inoperable. The fighter, being used in tests of the Argus As 014 impulse jets for Fieseler Fi 103 missile development, had its usual HeS 8A turbojets removed, and was towed aloft from Rechlin, Germany by a pair of Bf 110C tugs in a heavy snow-shower. At 7,875 feet (2,400 m), Schenk found he had no control, jettisoned his towline, and ejected.[2] The He 280 was never put into production status and the first operational type to provide ejection seats for the crew was the Heinkel He 219 Uhu night fighter in 1942.
In late 1944, the Heinkel He 162 featured a new type of ejection seat, this time fired by an explosive cartridge. In this system the seat rode on wheels set between two pipes running up the back of the cockpit. When lowered into position, caps at the top of the seat fitted over the pipes to close them. Cartridges, basically identical to shotgun shells, were placed in the bottom of the pipes, facing upward. When fired, the gases would fill the pipes, "popping" the caps off the end, and thereby forcing the seat to ride up the pipes on its wheels and out of the aircraft. By the end of the war, the Do-335 Pfeil and a few prototype aircraft were also fitted with ejection seats.

What's your source on the corkscrewing?
 
I can't remember which book I read it in if you recall in you're Do19 thread I mentioned that the majority of my books have been sitting in storage for the past five years. But I've been meaning to dig em out. Ill try to get to em this week and if I can find the book Ill PM you the information.
 
Top