Oversea America 1783

What If-- During the treaty of Paris in 1783, the US gained Bermuda and the Bahamas.
[Make up your own POD] [They were pro America during the ARW]

?How would haveing Non Continious parts, reached by Sea affect the early US.?

?Would the AoC maintain a Navy? ?Would Congress approve the money for some Ships of the Line? ?Other Changes?????????????
 

General Zod

Banned
What If-- During the treaty of Paris in 1783, the US gained Bermuda and the Bahamas.
[Make up your own POD] [They were pro America during the ARW]

?How would haveing Non Continious parts, reached by Sea affect the early US.?

The Congress and the American public see much more reason to build and maintain a decent-sized Navy in the early days of the republic. Hence, more and more decisive victories in the Quasi-War and the War of 1812.
 
1. The Bermudians had a cross-section of colonists in rebel and loyalist sympathies akin to other colonies, so having rebels get into power somehow could already seal this. Barring that, they were swarmed by American privateers once the Revolution began, and in 1779 with only ten minutes to spare the HMS Delaware brought 100 loyalist troops and supplies to the starving island, missing four American privateers with many more guns. Have those ten minutes be lost, the Delaware sunk or captured, privateers taking over the island (either in return for promised supplies, or just pissing off loyalist colonists into realizing the British cannot help them) and you can have Lord North write the islands off as another lost colony or conquered territory by America or whatnot.

2. Bahamas could have the classic marine raid of '76 be longer and whip up more people into rebel sympathy. Barring that, not many people realize that the Spanish capture of the island in 1782 also had American sailors involved-it was just the Spanish who actually landed troops and could claim the island.

Perhaps America can claim the Bahamians as 'fellow Americans' citing the English heritage and their part in the '76 and '82 raids. Assuming England doesn't have something to offer-Spain already captured Florida as well-we could have them backing American claims to the islands. After all, English and American ports will soon be open to each other again anyways-does it matter if the English-speaking Bahamians simply live under a different flag if they're still bringing in the bucks?

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As for the navy, remember that the ACTUAL American navy was not existant till 1798, but privateers very much active. Even if the island groups we speak of get captured in 1812's war (bloody likely) the resulting British occupations will get mercilessly harrassed by pirates. I see them being returned as part of the 1812 status-quo.

I also say these have a much better chance of happening for some reason if you can get Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia into the fold...Lord North just gives up more territory since it's obvious, so to speak, so many English-speakers in North America seem to hate the motherland now. ;):p

(yes, I'm aware of the loyalists, but more American lands won means more likely just accepting their fate as-is)

(I'll also say regarding the HMS Delaware: why did my homestate's namesake kill off more wankish possibilities for us? Yar! ;))
 
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General Zod

Banned
I also say these have a much better chance of happening for some reason if you can get Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia into the fold...Lord North just gives up more territory since it's obvious, so to speak, so many English-speakers in North America seem to hate the motherland now. ;):p

Have you read the notes for my TL ? ;):p

And Quebec. Don't forget Quebec. If the Continental colonies are unanimous in rejecting British rule, and the West Indies are unruly too, and ARW fares at least as well as OTL (quite likely if the Patriots have the resources of Canada to draw upon as well), it is quite likely that Lord North may be willing to part with at least part of the West Indies, too.

Of course, what he doesn't let go in 1783, will remain a hotbed of US irredentism and will be liberated in 1812. :D:cool:

(yes, I'm aware of the loyalists, but more American lands won means more likely just accepting their fate as-is)

Indeed. If Canada joins the party, the loyalists will most likely accept the outcome, or be resettled in Ireland or Australia.
 
Have you read the notes for my TL ? ;):p

And Quebec. Don't forget Quebec. If the Continental colonies are unanimous in rejecting British rule, and the West Indies are unruly too, and ARW fares at least as well as OTL (quite likely if the Patriots have the resources of Canada to draw upon as well), it is quite likely that Lord North may be willing to part with at least part of the West Indies, too.

I've been nervous on Quebec lately in Ameri-wanks....too much trouble to fit into what constituted 'American' in those days, what with its society and culture; and more importantly to make an Ameri-wank that's still, you know. Semi-believable.

And I *did* read your TL, but a bit back. I obviously need to check it again. :eek:

I knew Bermuda had many rebels in it, but not the Bahamas. Interesting.
 

General Zod

Banned
I've been nervous on Quebec lately in Ameri-wanks....too much trouble to fit into what constituted 'American' in those days, what with its society and culture; and more importantly to make an Ameri-wank that's still, you know. Semi-believable.

The decisive factor here is to ensure that they are a part of the Patriot movement from the start. Nothing builds fraternity and familiarity like fighting a war together. They will see, and be seen, by the other Americans, as "different, but our guys". One ought never to forget that back in the days, there were plenty of guys in the 13 colonies that didn't fit in the "Anglo-Saxon, Protestant" mold, but were accepted as citizens and neighbors nonetheless. Also, if Quebecois are allowed to choose their own destiny in the Revolution, they will never develop the insular mentality that will characterize them in subsequent centuries. The USA federal model will leave them plenty of room to establish what they need to feel at home, like French as a second official language. America is still so young that society and culture will have plenty of room to hybridize. If New Orleans could fit, so will Montreal.

And I *did* read your TL, but a bit back. I obviously need to check it again. :eek:

So far, I have posted but bits and partial sketches here and there in appropriate threads, to get some feedback as I plot and plan. ;) There is nothing barely complete to check, yet. :eek:
 
The decisive factor here is to ensure that they are a part of the Patriot movement from the start. Nothing builds fraternity and familiarity like fighting a war together. They will see, and be seen, by the other Americans, as "different, but our guys". One ought never to forget that back in the days, there were plenty of guys in the 13 colonies that didn't fit in the "Anglo-Saxon, Protestant" mold, but were accepted as citizens and neighbors nonetheless. Also, if Quebecois are allowed to choose their own destiny in the Revolution, they will never develop the insular mentality that will characterize them in subsequent centuries. The USA federal model will leave them plenty of room to establish what they need to feel at home, like French as a second official language. America is still so young that society and culture will have plenty of room to hybridize. If New Orleans could fit, so will Montreal.



So far, I have posted but bits and partial sketches here and there in appropriate threads, to get some feedback as I plot and plan. ;) There is nothing barely complete to check, yet. :eek:

Aye, that's true. Montreal has never been something I felt would be worrisome to people wanting to Anglicize Quebec-Canada OTL has always had Montreal having a significant Anglo population both in the city proper and the eastern townships and Americans moving in would presumably add far more Anglophones, if not an outright majority. Indeed, I can see Montreal easily becoming primarily Anglo in language and outlook if in the United States from those days, a French version of New York (the trace of Dutch culture being even in the early days of the republic, but literally that, a trace. English/American by and far otherwise).

It's Quebec City itself I ponder on, though I suppose it can become a 'northern New Orleans' of a sort (or rather in TTL New Orleans is a 'southern Quebec', I guess...). Much stronger French subculture than Montreal but still an American city to both Americans and foreigners in any event.

Eep. I was thinking of the 'Constitution for Ameriwanks' thread then...apologies!
 

General Zod

Banned
Aye, that's true. Montreal has never been something I felt would be worrisome to people wanting to Anglicize Quebec-Canada OTL has always had Montreal having a significant Anglo population both in the city proper and the eastern townships and Americans moving in would presumably add far more Anglophones, if not an outright majority. Indeed, I can see Montreal easily becoming primarily Anglo in language and outlook if in the United States from those days, a French version of New York (the trace of Dutch culture being even in the early days of the republic, but literally that, a trace. English/American by and far otherwise).

It's Quebec City itself I ponder on, though I suppose it can become a 'northern New Orleans' of a sort (or rather in TTL New Orleans is a 'southern Quebec', I guess...). Much stronger French subculture than Montreal but still an American city to both Americans and foreigners in any event.

Good points.

Eep. I was thinking of the 'Constitution for Ameriwanks' thread then...apologies!

Never mind at all. :D It is true that I plan to use the Constitution for TLs of mine, but in my own intent that document is meant to be of use and inspiration to pretty much all Ameriwankers at large. ;) The only assumptions are that Canada is part of the Great Experiment from the start and that the Framers have all the flashes of political insight they could conceivably be.
 
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