Overlord attempted with the originally planned 3 divisions

All,

This is a spin-off of the current Overlord thread.

WI Overlord was attempted according to Morgan's plan with only 3 divisions and 2 brigades?

(Dieppe was 1 full division and a range of other units).

What was the COSSAC follow-up plans and how realistic were they?

With only 3 divisions, it looks more comparable to Dieppe than a full-blown invasion.

Monty was sharp in terms of planning and logistics. What if he had not been available (He could have been deployed to Burma)?

Would Slim have been equal in terms of planning?

If the show had to be run by Eisenhover and Bradley, with only 3 divisions, how well would it have been executed?

Brooke was appointed to begin with. Would he have accepted 3 divisions and 2 brigades (only)?

How well would he have planned if he were Supreme Commander?

Ivan
 
What is the makeup of the 3 Divisions? Two Commonwealth and one U.S. ... Two U.S. and one Brit ... all three Commonwealth ... all three U.S.?
 
There's not enough force on too narrow a front for the original plan to be successful, expanding the front as Monty did was really the only way to ensure the Allies would get enough force on shore that they wouldn't be thrown back into the sea.

Eisenhower had come to a similar conclusion to Monty in believing the original plan too restrictive and had told Bedel Smith such before flying off to meet with Marshall in Washington. Without the support of Bedel Smith acting as Eisenhower's representative then Monty would have struggled far more to get his amendments to the plan accepted by COSSAC - as it was he had to present his plans to Eisenhower against the original COSSAC plan when Eisenhower arrived so that the Supreme Commander could choose between them.
 
I can't find a reference to the make-up of the thre divisions of early Overlord. Anyone? A guess would be 2 British, one American, but I can't find anything.

The poor initiative had some strange iterations, from (pre-Dieppe) to "conquer" and occupy a French port in autumn 1942, do the build-up during the winter and finally break-out in spring 1943. That was not really realistic. The other one was to have a first wave of 48 divisions (from where?) etc.

Morgan came up with 3 divisions based on the availability of landing craft.

Mony and Ike shot it down and basically told their political masters that the necessary landing craft just had to be found. period. Probably the only time Ike and Monty agreed on anything.

I am not sure how well-defined Morgan's air plan was and whether he also got Ramsey and RN deeply involved before Monty took over.

Ivan
 

amphibulous

Banned
Monty was sharp in terms of planning and logistics. What if he had not been available (He could have been deployed to Burma)?

Would Slim have been equal in terms of planning?

Slim was a superb commander and very realistic; there is no way he would have allowed a 3 division invasion.

Brooke was appointed to begin with. Would he have accepted 3 divisions and 2 brigades (only)?

Very, very unlikely.The British in general were the ones insisting on a delay to accumulate more force and Brooke was of the cautious-but-determined school.
 

amphibulous

Banned
Mony and Ike shot it down and basically told their political masters that the necessary landing craft just had to be found. period. Probably the only time Ike and Monty agreed on anything.

If Ike and Monty didn't agree frequently, then why did Ike back a plan as obviously risky as Market Garden, or give command of US forces to Montgomery when they were being routed in the Ardennes? It wasn't a perfect relationship (which is understandable, because each man could see quite clearly how flawed the other one was professionally) but it was better than you imply.
 
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Ike was not impressed with Monty. He also felt he cheated him with the promise of his own plane.

Patton referred to him as 'the Field Marshall" and not in a good way.

No, I think it was worse than that. Monty was forced down his throat.

Ivan
 
Ike was not impressed with Monty. He also felt he cheated him with the promise of his own plane.

Patton referred to him as 'the Field Marshall" and not in a good way.

No, I think it was worse than that. Monty was forced down his throat.

Ivan

Hard cheese. Monty got Overlord ashore intact and then won the Battle of Normandy. He may not have won it the way that he said that he planned, but he won it.
 
Some background on COSSAC & the earlier invasion plans might be usefull here. COSSAC was formed as one of the agreements of the January 1943 Cansalblanca confrence & General Morgan appointed as Chief of Staff of COSSAC. This was never more than a planning staff. COSSAC had no commander, no combat or support units & reported to the Allied Combined Chiefs of Staff. Morgans writ fell into two parts. He was to prepare plans for invading NW Europe based on only the Allied forces actually in the UK. this limit was important. Morgan was to prepare information and estimates for larger forces, but specific plans for only what was at hand.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-E-Supreme/USA-E-Supreme-5.html

The principle limit the COSSAC staff faced was landing craft. 1943 operations in the Mediterranean & MacAurthurs South Pacific offensive drew the bulk of the production and little was sent to the UK. In January of 1943 there were suffcient landing craft for a single division size assualt & limited follow up of about two divisions & corps units per week. Expansion to a three division assualt was slow and was based on planned deliveries of landing craft. The Combined CoS agreed on enough boats to be sent to the UK to expand training, and to accomodate the various Sledgehammer, Roundup, Rankin, & early Overlord plans.

When SHAEF was stood up at the end of 1943 COSSAC was dissolved & its staff distributed to SHAEF, 21 Army Group, 12 Army Group, and elsewhere. General Morgan became Deputy Chief of Staff at SHAEF. Butcher who Ike wanted for his CoS knew nothing about the Overlord plans as he had been entirely involved in Mediterranean operations for over a year so it was logical to bring Morgan and his library of intelligence on German forces, terrain information, estimates, ect... into SHAEF to continue doing what he had been doing. Montgomery certainly deserves a great deal of credit for the Neptune/Overlord plans of 1944. But, Morgans continued role on the staff at SHAEF during those preperations has been largely ignored.

I can't find a reference to the make-up of the thre divisions of early Overlord. Anyone? A guess would be 2 British, one American, but I can't find anything.

Call it Overlord 1.0 ? Nominally the three assualt groups were to be one Brit, Canadian, US each. The beaches were to be Omaha, Juno, & IIRC Gold.

Mony and Ike shot it down and basically told their political masters that the necessary landing craft just had to be found. period. Probably the only time Ike and Monty agreed on anything.

The Combined CoS had seen Morgans estimates for larger invasion requirements long before Ike & Monty departed the Med. The bulk of new construction were scheduled for delivery to the UK, as were most of those in the Med. The political master interfering was Churchill who continued insisting on large scale amphibious ops in the Balkans. marshall was dead set against anything that interfered with Overlord and ran sucessfull interferance for Ike against Kings & MacAurthurs requests for the PTO.

I am not sure how well-defined Morgan's air plan was and whether he also got Ramsey and RN deeply involved before Monty took over.

Few clues here. Ramsey was commanding in the Med until January 1944 & so would have had nothing to do with Morgans 1943 plans. Morgan wrote plans based on what was at hand, but he had zero command authority, and little interest from Churchill. Given the huge number of air groups destined for the UK, & over 10,000 operational in December 1944 Morgan may have been planning on substantial support from the Brit tactical airforces, the US 9th AF, & the US tactical air wings in the UK.

At this point I have to think the early Overlord 1.0 would have been expanded whoever commanded in 1944. Morgan was not wedded to the early plan, and understood what was required for a truly decisive invasion. It makes a bit more sense to ask the question of the original post as applying to 1943 rather than 1944.

A few other bits.

The Overlord 2.0 plan Monty unveiled in early 1944 was only of four beaches. The Brits were upped to two beacheads, but there were still not expected to be enough landing craft for more by the target date of 1 May. Utah Beach was added after map exercises showed Cherbourg could not be quickly captured with US 1st Army starting from OMAHA Beach only. Adding UTAH Beach meant a delay for delivery of additional landing craft. The rapid capture of Cherbourg was considered absolutely essential to the sucess of Overlord so Ike & the others bit their lip and accepted it. Ironically Cherbourg was captured far later than thought possible and proved less important than thought.

The targets for the several airborne divisions were changed multiple times between December and May. One early target for the Brits was somewhere south of Caen, the airfield? A US AB div was to be dropped on a unused airfield on the west side of the Coteinten penensula.

So, we can see that Monty (and others) rewrote his plan originally put to paper in Janauary.
 
I fully agree that Morgan's efforts were overlooked.

Morgan's first letter had the following:

"Those within our control relate first to the problem of beach maintenance, and secondly to the supply of shipping, naval landing craft and transport aircraft. Wherever we may attempt to land, and however many ports we capture, we cannot escape the fact that we shall be forced to maintain a high proportion of our forces over the beaches for the first two or three months while port facilities are being restored; "

and:

"The essential discrepancy in value between the enemy's troops, highly organised, armed and battle-trained, who await us in their much vaunted impregnable defences, and our troops, who must of necessity launch their assault at the end of a cross-Channel voyage with all its attendant risks, must be reduced to the narrowest possible margin. [...], we are largely dependent upon events that will take place on other war fronts, principally on the Russian front, between now and the date of the assault.

The last paragrph is really telling:

"Finally, I venture to draw attention to the danger of making direct comparisons between operation "Husky"* and operation "Overlord." No doubt the experience now being gained in the Mediterranean will prove invaluable when the detailed planning stage for "Overlord" is reached, but viewed as a whole the two operations could hardly be more dissimilar. In "Husky," the bases of an extended continental coastline were used for a converging assault against an island, whereas in "Overlord" it is necessary to launch an assault from an island against an extended continental mainland coastline. Furthermore, while in the Mediterranean the tidal range is negligible and the weather reasonably reliable, in the English Channel the tidal range is considerable and the weather capricious."

So, Morgan worked within his limits and for that Monty shot down his plan.

Did Morgan get the bomber fleet into the plan? Harris was not interested in "lending" his bombers to tactical bombing. After all (according to himself) they had much more important work to do, winning the war from the air as being one of them.

Monty and Ike? I think theremust be some books written about their relationship.

Monty as the absolute hero of the desert and Ike not exactly a big hero after Kasserina. Patton had a dislike of Monty, but did it start in the desert of was Patton just not inclined to the "britishers" to begin with?

When did Monty's war start to "go according to plan" no matter what actually happened? His 10 days for the break-in at El Alameing suddenly went according to another plan, etc.

Interesting concept: IF Brooke had been acceptable to all parties, there would have been a US ground commander. WHO? Bradley? Patton? Eisenhover? Fredendal (ohno)?

Ivan










 
ivanotter said:
Morgan came up with 3 divisions based on the availability of landing craft.
Which reminds me: the limits on LC weren't only on use in PTO & Med. There was a change in construction priority affecting numbers. IIRC, the priority was reduced; had it been maintained, it seems possible the 3-div plan would never have been mooted in the first place.
 
Did they downgrade the importance of landing craft? That would be rather amazing at that point in time. What would they build instead? More Liberty ships?

I know that King was trying his best to keep "his" LC's in the Pacific.

One of the things Brooke wanted was to keep the threat of invasion North of Rome (Adriatic included) open and let Germany kow it. In that instance, Germany would be forced to have a higher reserve in Italy than if an invasion was actually carried out.

That would have required some LC's in the Med.

He was dead against additional invasion of France. As he saw it, an Invasion in Southern France would achieve one thing: get German forces closer to Normandy and placing them on the French N-S railway lines.

Keeping them in Italy with limited rail connections through the Alps was more logical, but alas, Marshall did not see it this way.

Ivan
 
ivanotter said:
Did they downgrade the importance of landing craft? That would be rather amazing at that point in time. What would they build instead?
Reader's health warning: it's been awhile since I read this...

As I recall, it was reduced, & CVEs/CVLs were built, instead. I don't recall the rationale, but I seem to recall it had to do with the timing of Neptune; IIRC, when Neptune was pushed back to 1944, CVs got an increased priority. (It may be there was a perceived need for more CVEs which led to LCs being reduced & to Neptune being pushed back, however...)
 
Did they downgrade the importance of landing craft? That would be rather amazing at that point in time. What would they build instead? More Liberty ships?

ASW ships. When the production schedules for 1943 were laid out, during 1942, there was a deep fear the submarines were winning. The construction of cargo ships was barely keeping pace with those sunk. The thought was to build enough ASW craft the the subs would be decisively defeated. By the time it was recognized the submarines had been defeated & there were enough destroyers, corvettes, ect... it was mid 1943 & any production change to LST, LCI, and specialized transports for the smaller boats like the LCM would not see results until the spring of 1943.

Costello & Hughes provide some details on this in 'The Battle of the Atlantic'

In the terrible days of 1942 it was hard to argue with the logic of the highly visible need for escort combatants. & the Three corps assualt capacity of the amphibs for Op Torch was fairly impressive for that day. No one could say then if more amphibs might actually be needed. The amphib ship & boat production forseen & laid on in 1942 was about all that could be justified at the moment.

I know that King was trying his best to keep "his" LC's in the Pacific.

The approval of Mac Arthurs Cartwheel operations at the end of 1942 diverted a corps worth of amphib lift to the South Pacific & ultimately a armys worth in 1944 for invading the Phillipines. The approval of a early start of the Central Pacific offensive in mid 1943 required another corps worth of amphib lift. Neither of those offensives were contemplated in Allied strategy sessions in 1942. It had been thought 1943 would be a period of general defense and small local counter attacks in the Pacifc, with a general offensive not starting until late that year, and then only on a single front.

One of the things Brooke wanted was to keep the threat of invasion North of Rome (Adriatic included) open and let Germany kow it. In that instance, Germany would be forced to have a higher reserve in Italy than if an invasion was actually carried out.

That would have required some LC's in the Med.

More Churchill than Brooke, but the latter did not shut Churchill off entirely.

From April 1944 lift for a one division assualt and a corps follow on remained in the Mediterrianean. Eisenhower accepted that as he understood: 1, The need to take advantage of any openings the Germans left Alexander. 2. The need to support the several deception operations ongoing in the Med. It was thought the Germans had to 'see' a amphibious fleet with their spys & air recon to make those deception ops credible. 3. Ike badly wanted to revive the Anvil operation & he knew that would be impossible if no amphibious lift remained in the Med.
 
Read this one carefully kids, good material here.

I fully agree that Morgan's efforts were overlooked.

Morgan's first letter had the following:

"Those within our control relate first to the problem of beach maintenance, and secondly to the supply of shipping, naval landing craft and transport aircraft. Wherever we may attempt to land, and however many ports we capture, we cannot escape the fact that we shall be forced to maintain a high proportion of our forces over the beaches for the first two or three months while port facilities are being restored; "

and:

"The essential discrepancy in value between the enemy's troops, highly organised, armed and battle-trained, who await us in their much vaunted impregnable defences, and our troops, who must of necessity launch their assault at the end of a cross-Channel voyage with all its attendant risks, must be reduced to the narrowest possible margin. [...], we are largely dependent upon events that will take place on other war fronts, principally on the Russian front, between now and the date of the assault.

The last paragrph is really telling:

"Finally, I venture to draw attention to the danger of making direct comparisons between operation "Husky"* and operation "Overlord." No doubt the experience now being gained in the Mediterranean will prove invaluable when the detailed planning stage for "Overlord" is reached, but viewed as a whole the two operations could hardly be more dissimilar. In "Husky," the bases of an extended continental coastline were used for a converging assault against an island, whereas in "Overlord" it is necessary to launch an assault from an island against an extended continental mainland coastline. Furthermore, while in the Mediterranean the tidal range is negligible and the weather reasonably reliable, in the English Channel the tidal range is considerable and the weather capricious."

So, Morgan worked within his limits and for that Monty shot down his plan.

Did Morgan get the bomber fleet into the plan? Harris was not interested in "lending" his bombers to tactical bombing. After all (according to himself) they had much more important work to do, winning the war from the air as being one of them.






The USAAF 9th AF & a portion of the RAF, the shorter ranged aircraft, could have been counted on for supporting a cross Channel attack in 1943 or under COSSACs Overlord 1.0. Harris & the USAAF Stratigic Bombing fans had little interest in the shorter ranged aircraft after mid 1943. ... and there were quite a few of them by the end of 43. The 9th AF was trying to figure out how to break the Germans transportation system in late 1943, which was a major contribution to the ultimate Op. Overlord sucess
 

amphibulous

Banned
Ike was not impressed with Monty. He also felt he cheated him with the promise of his own plane.

Patton referred to him as 'the Field Marshall" and not in a good way.

No, I think it was worse than that. Monty was forced down his throat.

Ivan

Congratulations on having mastered the art of watching TV!

However in ***reality***

- Ike backed Market Garden

- And when has was at his most desperate - when US forces were routing like Girl Guides who had stumbled across a Manson family picnic in the Ardennes - Ike chose to give Monty, a British general, command of American troops to save the situation (although the Germans ran out of gas before they could finish breaking the Americans completely - but Ike wasn't to know that)

Saying that he would do these things for a general he wasn't impressed with is ludicrous.
 
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