Outline of German carrier development

we know that now; but if you look at the paranoia in the admiralty surrounding the pb's versus their relative indifference to the japanese build up, one can certainly get the feeling that they didn't know that then

i don't want to make this into "raid" where the british sit back and do nothing; but the claims of knee jerk mega build up are overstated

britain showed a sensitivity to german shipbuilding in public and private debate... but they didn't actually counter the pocket battleships for all their handringing (and they didn't need to as the ships were largely no more effective than any other cruiser IRL)... there was hardly any thought at all as counter the GZ and no active counter build against her

for the moment, i'm figuring ark royal gets two sisters and the three most useful existing carriers get modernized to the degree possible, thus giving the british 2 modern full fleet carriers for each German light carrier

this gives the british 45,000 more tonnes of carriers vs the germans just going with their otl tonnage so that shouldn't be straying too far into wank territory yes?

Well, the RN probably thought 7 carriers to one carrier prototype reasonable odds re. the GZ....:)
They would go for a bit more than 2:1, though.
The RN has to assume some carriers might be needed outside the North Sea, plus that there are refits to consider (a German raid wouldn't have any ships in refit).
The only useful older carriers were Glorious and Courageous, so on the basis of carriers I'd expect 3 Ark class, for a start. But remember, there is that big Air Ministry issue with the FAA and available planes, if the Germans have carriers that have to be matched something is going to give in the UK armed forces internal politics, and it could get bloody....:eek:
 
which is why GZ persisted with 6'' guns against all normal CV design logic, the KM always expected to have to shoot it out to get into the open Atlantic...

there was also standing doctrine for her to engage unescorted merchies with gunfire :eek::eek::eek::eek:

i can't begin to process the number of things wrong with that idea
 
Well, the RN probably thought 7 carriers to one carrier prototype reasonable odds re. the GZ....:)
They would go for a bit more than 2:1, though.
The RN has to assume some carriers might be needed outside the North Sea, plus that there are refits to consider (a German raid wouldn't have any ships in refit).
The only useful older carriers were Glorious and Courageous, so on the basis of carriers I'd expect 3 Ark class, for a start. But remember, there is that big Air Ministry issue with the FAA and available planes, if the Germans have carriers that have to be matched something is going to give in the UK armed forces internal politics, and it could get bloody....:eek:

2 for 1 understates the superiority, as the German Ryujo's will only carry 32 aircraft where the RN ones carry 55ish (on average) so you are talking about just in the 6 modern ones vs the Ryujos 330 aircraft strike capability vs 96 plane at sea superiority of 3.43 to 1
 
2 for 1 understates the superiority, as the German Ryujo's will only carry 32 aircraft where the RN ones carry 55ish (on average) so you are talking about just in the 6 modern ones vs the Ryujos 330 aircraft strike capability vs 96 plane at sea superiority of 3.43 to 1

Thats only the case if the Air Ministry will supply the aircraft, which in OTL they wouldn't. That was the real reason the second batch of RN carriers werent intended to carry a big air wing.
Feel free to bomb the Air Ministry...;);)
 
Weird thought - could the RN try to pull a 'Taranto' on major German carrier bases on day one of the war, or at least contemplate it as an option (on the lines of how the RAF contemplated large-scale bombing as a counter to possible German city-bombing)?
***
On another note, if Germany's close with Japan as early as 1934 (if not earlier), who does Chiang look to for military aid, and how does it affect the Second Sino-Japanese War?
 
Thats only the case if the Air Ministry will supply the aircraft, which in OTL they wouldn't. That was the real reason the second batch of RN carriers werent intended to carry a big air wing.
Feel free to bomb the Air Ministry...;);)

Some suffering might have to be inflicted first before the message is properly absorbed :cool:
 
Weird thought - could the RN try to pull a 'Taranto' on major German carrier bases on day one of the war, or at least contemplate it as an option (on the lines of how the RAF contemplated large-scale bombing as a counter to possible German city-bombing)?
***
On another note, if Germany's close with Japan as early as 1934 (if not earlier), who does Chiang look to for military aid, and how does it affect the Second Sino-Japanese War?

unlike Taranto the German fleet anchorages were:

1. shielded by early warning radars
2. shielded by modern fighters
3. heavily saturated with anti aircraft guns and spotlights
4. routinely shielded by the weather of the north sea
5. covered by patrols of aircraft and submarines which would have a decent shot at finding the carrier before it launched it's flock)

the british tried several raids on german ports during the sitzkrieg, they lost a bunch of aircraft and inflicted a small bit of damage on the Gneisenau...they found that bombing during the daytime against german targets was prohibitive due to robust defense

and their night bombing had some accuracy issues in those days
 
Large DD

there was also standing doctrine for her to engage unescorted merchies with gunfire :eek::eek::eek::eek:

i can't begin to process the number of things wrong with that idea

The GZ was fast and might outrun a treaty cruiser on heavy seas, but the very fast Large French DD and the Brit Tribals would be able to catch her. I suspect that's what the guns were for, since shooting it out with a treaty CA would be suicidal.
But my point was that geography dictates that KM ships have to risk a gunfight to get out of the North Sea, and that forces the KM to think long and hard about spending it's money, and yard time on carriers before it has the shipsto escort them across the GIUK gap on the face of Brit and French BC and fast BB...
 
The GZ was fast and might outrun a treaty cruiser on heavy seas, but the very fast Large French DD and the Brit Tribals would be able to catch her. I suspect that's what the guns were for, since shooting it out with a treaty CA would be suicidal.
But my point was that geography dictates that KM ships have to risk a gunfight to get out of the North Sea, and that forces the KM to think long and hard about spending it's money, and yard time on carriers before it has the shipsto escort them across the GIUK gap on the face of Brit and French BC and fast BB...

the GZ had a gigantic shitload of armor (she weighed as much as the damn scharnhorst) and her guns had the same range as a town class cruiser (give or take)... and with GZ's superior speed she could dictate the tempo of an engagement

you just have to suspend disbelief in the whole carrier engaging enemy cruiser with gunfire thing :D (if I was her captain, I may use the stukas instead thank you)
 
unlike Taranto the German fleet anchorages were:

1. shielded by early warning radars
2. shielded by modern fighters
3. heavily saturated with anti aircraft guns and spotlights
4. routinely shielded by the weather of the north sea
5. covered by patrols of aircraft and submarines which would have a decent shot at finding the carrier before it launched it's flock)

the british tried several raids on german ports during the sitzkrieg, they lost a bunch of aircraft and inflicted a small bit of damage on the Gneisenau...they found that bombing during the daytime against german targets was prohibitive due to robust defense

and their night bombing had some accuracy issues in those days

Hmm, not as much as you might think....:)
They weren't 'saturated' with AA guns, at least not that early in the war (no-where was...)
The weather in the North Sea isn't good (especially in winter), but had no issues for the RN who were perfectly used to it (the KM, not so much, as a ship or two who broke up in it would attest...:)

Patrols of ships or aircraft weren't that hot at all at that stage in the war (and patrols have an added complication of British minefields). Without radar, its not too difficult to sneak a force in, especially if you use the weather to your advantage. The KM simply didnt have enough subs at this point to have them patrolling the approaches.

The failed RAF attacks were, well, badly thought out (I will be polite here..)
Now a night attack by carriers, on, say, Wilhelmshaven, otoh...:D:D

Remember, all the points you made applied to Taranto, and it didnt exactly slow the FAA down much...:eek:

By the spring, after Norway falls, it is of course far more difficult to get a raid in.
 
the GZ had a gigantic shitload of armor (she weighed as much as the damn scharnhorst) and her guns had the same range as a town class cruiser (give or take)... and with GZ's superior speed she could dictate the tempo of an engagement

you just have to suspend disbelief in the whole carrier engaging enemy cruiser with gunfire thing :D (if I was her captain, I may use the stukas instead thank you)


Look on the bright side, it could have been worse...

They could have fitted her with a ram....:D:p:D
 
Look on the bright side, it could have been worse...

They could have fitted her with a ram....:D:p:D

given her construction (for some reason I always think super star destoyer executor when I see a picture of her); she could certainly ram the shit out of anything up to a heavy cruiser:D
 
given her construction (for some reason I always think super star destoyer executor when I see a picture of her); she could certainly ram the shit out of anything up to a heavy cruiser:D

You can just see it.....:D

Admiral : "Captain, lauch CAP"
Captain : "CAP launched, sir"
Admiral : "Captain, launch dive bombers"
Captain : "Stukas on the way, sir."
Admiral : "very well, Captain, now...RAMMING SPEED!!!"
 
You can just see it.....:D

Admiral : "Captain, lauch CAP"
Captain : "CAP launched, sir"
Admiral : "Captain, launch dive bombers"
Captain : "Stukas on the way, sir."
Admiral : "very well, Captain, now...RAMMING SPEED!!!"

Aboard the British destroyer pursuing:

XO: She's turning around sir
Captain: Getting into the wind to launch her flock?
XO: I don't think so
Captain: What do you mean, why would she head strait for us
XO: Well she does weigh 35,000 tones and we weigh 2000
Captain:..... oh she is moving awfully fast, what do you say old chap 180 degrees to port and maximum revolutions
XO: yea;)
 
3 carriers that combined only weigh what the gz weighed to change attitude?

France had a reaction to the PB's IRL it was the construction of the Dunkerque class battlecruisers

I have no problem with them doing some counter building... perhaps they can build two or three copies of the yorktown or a design of their own in response

I will have some British counter building as well, but perhaps a little more slowly than what the french would do since they have a huge headstart with ships on active service already

but both parties were a long LONG way off from armed conflict at that point

Regarding the Marine National's response to the hypothetical German carriers:

Unfortunately for the MN, the battleship lobby is still going to be quite strong. However, without the impetus of the Pocket battleships to spur construction of the Dunkerque class BC's there's an opening for the construction of purpose built carriers.

That being said, depending on when the German carriers come into service there's going to be a gap where the MN doesn't have a single suitable carrier. (They will have one but the Bearn is far too slow and ungainly to compete with modern carriers, suitable only for training purposes at best). In such a scenario I could see the French going with a stopgap solution and converting the obsolete Duquesne class cruisers (there were 2) into flush deck carriers (plans existed in OTL for this but were never followed through on.)

Whether they get their purpose built carriers completed is anyone's guess. I'm tempted to think that after completing the conversion of the Duquesne and the Tourville (finished around 36/37 if they start in 34/35) that the MN will put off the construction of purpose built carriers for a few years probably meaning that like OTL the ships are under construction at the commencement of hostilities in 1939.

As for the German carriers, a bigger question for me is what kind of escorts are going to be built for them? Are we going to see the KM put forward small CBG's for raiding purposes (1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 2-3 DD's?). Also given the fact that the KM is going to have it's own aircraft for carriers, shouldn't Osterkamp manage to secure more aircraft to establish an independent KM naval air arm, with naval bombers etc?
 
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