outline of german carrier development v2

Suggested track (with some elements borrowed from Wade Dudley) modified so as to get danger on danger off the ground

1922: Theo Osterkamp, the last winner of the Pour Le Merite as a naval aviator is struck by a Hitler speech and joins the nazi party as one of it's more visible leaders. Theo becomes one of the top 10 leaders of the party within a year and takes leave to go on international races

1923: Failed Beer Hall Coup, Theo out of Munich by accident at the time, becomes major leader of Nazi's in exile in Austria; forces HG to give up drugs; visits Hitler in Jail

1924-1931: Theo is major player in Nazi party and parliament and seen as top level brass in nazi party. Theo accidently gets the chief of german naval command into a scandal by having him endorse the nazi ship building program which leads to the PB's being delayed. Theo visits Japan on a book took and takes a tour aboard the Ryujo including secret recordings. Ribbentrop accompanies him and the two quickly build positive relations with important members of the Japanese government.

33: Hitler becomes chancellor and secretly tasks HG with forming the luftwaffe and Osterkamp with forming it's naval air element. Osterkamp is named major general and also founds a new Naval intel office which procures major naval secrets

late 33: Osterkamp shows Hitler secret footage of British and Japanese carriers which captures Hitler's imagination the way the first panzer exercises do; Osterkamp explains that carriers offer a cheap way to develop serious striking power without the cost and time of an all guns naval buildup; Hitler orders Osterkamp to explore the idea

late 33: Osterkamp proposes several plans to raeder (the two got along well in real life) and the "triangle plan is developed"

late 33: Germany reaches out to japan about purchasing design plans and license for their carrier ryujo; and starting a clandestine training program for german pilots and sailors to take 6 month rotations on japanese vessels for familiarization and certification purposes; Japan accepts. With two years of service Japan has set up program to improve Ryujo's seakeeping which Germany will keep abreast of. Germany will only have one hanger deck on their ships with 16 fighters and 16 bombers/torpedo bombers

late 33: Germany lays down 3 "pocket battle ships of 10k class" Graf Spee, Admiral Scheer, and Deutchland; these ships are built as shell cruisers intended to be completed as modified ryujo's (14ish k tonnes) once the mask is removed

late 33: In conjunction with the triangle plan; as part of Hitler's program of mass public works; slipways and dockyards are modified for improved capacity and future building

34: Raeder in a secret meeting announces the scope of the triangle plan which will see the German surface fleet primarily centered around three task forces each composed of a ryujo, a battleship, a heavy cruiser, a light (AA) cruiser and 7 destroyers

35: The heavy cruisers Hipper, Blucher and Lutzow are laid down, 7 destroyers are laid down, the first production u-boats are laid down; Versailles is renounced, and the Luftwaffe is revealed under HG with Osterkamp commanding the naval air division; Hitler orders the formation of 10 naval squadrons, and the procurement of aircraft to serve aboard the ryujos; the mask is removed on the ryujos and work commences at full speed to complete them as carriers. Theo's squadron's due to reason of economy must mostly get by with "navalized variants" of procured land aircraft

36. The light cruisers Prinz Eugene, Baureidel, and Berlin and are laid down, battleship Bismark is laid down in the first quarter, battleship scharnhorst is laid down in the 3rd quarter 7 destroyers laid down

37 Battleship gneisenau is laid down in the first quarter; Deuchland is commissioned in the 4th quarter 7 destroyers laid down, 7 destroyers commissioned

38 Scheer is commissioned in the 2nd quarter, Spee is commissioned in the 4th quarter; Deuchland goes on her first patrol near spain in the 4th quarter using HE-51's and and HS-123's All three heavy cruisers commissioned 7 destroyers commissioned

39 Deuchland and Sheer go on patrol near spain, Spee completes work up in 3rd quarter, All three light cruisers commissioned, 6 of 7 destroyers commissioned last one is 90 percent complete when case white is ordered. Naval variants of ME-109 (t) and JU-87 (r) are certified for use on the carriers

task force composition at 9/1/39

task force 1
Deuchland, , Hipper, Prinz Eugene 7 destroyers aircraft me-109t ju-87r combat ready

task force 2
Scheer, Bluecher, Baurediel 7 destroyers aircraft me-109t ju-87r
combat ready

task force 3
Spee, Lutzow, Berlin 6 destroyers aircraft me-109t ju87 r
ready for first shakedown patrol 12/1/39

1940 completion schedule
1st quarter Bismark for task force 1,
3rd quarter Scharnhorst for task force 2
4th quarter Gneisenau for task force 3

french and british reaction~

French build 2 copies of Yorktown (1 complete by case white 1 on the slips) and still build the dunkirk and strasbourg anyway
British build a sister for ark royal, and modernize glorious/eagle/furious/courageous giving them 2 modern fleet carriers for each german light carrier; battleship construction is otlish and 6 additional heavy cruisers and light cruisers are ordered and completed by case white to counter the German builds
 
Why waste CAs

Using your pocket BB as a base for carrier design severely limits your options. When they were laid down nobody could expect Hitler's rise to power as soon as 1933. The ships would either have to be left on the slips indefinitely, or completed as cruisers at some point. You would then have a lot of trouble to rebuild them, to end up with a compromised CL design. The best of the converted Cruisers design, the Saipam class, was allways going to be inferior to allied CV. Why not do what the IJN did, and base your "shadow program" on passenger liners? A German version of the Junyo/Hiyo class would be easier, the ships could be used as liners while waiting for conversions, and would provide a much larger CV that could compete with allied ships.
On the allied response, the French did built two CV OTL, the Joffre and Painleve, that we're original designs and not Yorktown replicas. Making them, who had a very original naval industry, go US for ideas would require some justification.
Note that the carrier version of the Ju87 is the C, the R being the long range land based antiship version (lacking folding wings)
 
Using your pocket BB as a base for carrier design severely limits your options. When they were laid down nobody could expect Hitler's rise to power as soon as 1933. The ships would either have to be left on the slips indefinitely, or completed as cruisers at some point. You would then have a lot of trouble to rebuild them, to end up with a compromised CL design. The best of the converted Cruisers design, the Saipam class, was allways going to be inferior to allied CV. Why not do what the IJN did, and base your "shadow program" on passenger liners? A German version of the Junyo/Hiyo class would be easier, the ships could be used as liners while waiting for conversions, and would provide a much larger CV that could compete with allied ships.
On the allied response, the French did built two CV OTL, the Joffre and Painleve, that we're original designs and not Yorktown replicas. Making them, who had a very original naval industry, go US for ideas would require some justification.
Note that the carrier version of the Ju87 is the C, the R being the long range land based antiship version (lacking folding wings)

I figured for them to do a very slow bow and stern type construction like they did with the prinz eugene in otl and starting in late 34 when Germany became openly brash about violating title 5 of versailles just remove the mask and finish her full bore as a modified ryujo. going for a small design is less straining on Germany's limited ship building capacity and will not create a huge rivalry of sucking up lots of aircraft

These are not the OTL PB's as those are delayed within the POD until Hitler comes to power... so the "PB's" are really purpose designed shells meant to appear to be cruisers until the mask can safely be removed

French items are good points thank you

I purposely labeled them R as the TL will have Germany create the R earlier and navalize it
 
Hmm, should I comment...? ;)

It isnt ASB, but I think you need to tweak the British reaction somewhat, I also have reservations about the German ships.

In OTL, the PB were slow - are these ones faster? i.e. Battlecruisers rather than PB? I'm not entirely clear.

The British had pwnd german naval shipbuilding. No matter the attampts at secrecy, they will know roughly what is goin on (you simply cant disguise a carrier as a PB - or vice versa - against a single looka t it early on. The base construction is completely different. As is the hull design. They will probably also have an idea about whats going on in Japan. At the time you mention, British-Japan relations were better, and you cant really disguise the German sailors. The issue, of course, is what will the British DO with the information - the German navy is one of their hot buttons, but there will be reluctance to be seen to be reacting too strongly.

I would suspect some (or all) of the following.
Lay down Ark earlier (maybe up to a year earlier), with a second ship about teh time of the OTL AR. Having to fight German carriers in the North Sea/Atlantic may well change the design of the armoured carriers to armoured hangar rather than deck - if they have to fight carriers, the low aircraft capacity is a huge issue.
The problem is kicking the Air Ministry until it agree to deliver the needed planes. The Admiralty has a much stronger hand now to strengthen the FAA - there is no way the RAF can protect ships in the Atlantic. There's always the possibility of sailing a couple of cruisers up the Thames and targetting the AM building...:p

Whether the British will use the existance of the German carriers to declare the naval treaties void is an issue difficult to decide. The Forces will want to scrap it, the government would be reluctant. Given that the RN will now have to look at facing carriers at sea, AND cover the far east, it would be very likely they dust off the plans for a trade protection carrier (roughly analogous to the Colossus class) as a means of protecting convoys if a German carrier force slips through into the Atlantic. They have cruiser-sized slips available, cruiser building is bottlenecked by FC and guns anyway. They would also probably look at the possibility of increasing shipborne AA. Heavy AA is bottlenecked by the FC systems, but they could fit more light AA earlier.

If the germans are going to include destroyers in the task forces, they'll have to build a completely new class with FAR longer range - their OTL ones had very short legs. That's going to mean they will be big, with knockon effects on RM destroyer design.

Given the timescale, the French might go for building a few CVL rather than CV's which will take them a long time to build (a slightly larger Colossus with a deck park can match the Germans air wing)
 
Hmm, should I comment...? ;)

It isnt ASB, but I think you need to tweak the British reaction somewhat, I also have reservations about the German ships.

In OTL, the PB were slow - are these ones faster? i.e. Battlecruisers rather than PB? I'm not entirely clear.

The British had pwnd german naval shipbuilding. No matter the attampts at secrecy, they will know roughly what is goin on (you simply cant disguise a carrier as a PB - or vice versa - against a single looka t it early on. The base construction is completely different. As is the hull design. They will probably also have an idea about whats going on in Japan. At the time you mention, British-Japan relations were better, and you cant really disguise the German sailors. The issue, of course, is what will the British DO with the information - the German navy is one of their hot buttons, but there will be reluctance to be seen to be reacting too strongly.

I would suspect some (or all) of the following.
Lay down Ark earlier (maybe up to a year earlier), with a second ship about teh time of the OTL AR. Having to fight German carriers in the North Sea/Atlantic may well change the design of the armoured carriers to armoured hangar rather than deck - if they have to fight carriers, the low aircraft capacity is a huge issue.
The problem is kicking the Air Ministry until it agree to deliver the needed planes. The Admiralty has a much stronger hand now to strengthen the FAA - there is no way the RAF can protect ships in the Atlantic. There's always the possibility of sailing a couple of cruisers up the Thames and targetting the AM building...:p

Whether the British will use the existance of the German carriers to declare the naval treaties void is an issue difficult to decide. The Forces will want to scrap it, the government would be reluctant. Given that the RN will now have to look at facing carriers at sea, AND cover the far east, it would be very likely they dust off the plans for a trade protection carrier (roughly analogous to the Colossus class) as a means of protecting convoys if a German carrier force slips through into the Atlantic. They have cruiser-sized slips available, cruiser building is bottlenecked by FC and guns anyway. They would also probably look at the possibility of increasing shipborne AA. Heavy AA is bottlenecked by the FC systems, but they could fit more light AA earlier.

If the germans are going to include destroyers in the task forces, they'll have to build a completely new class with FAR longer range - their OTL ones had very short legs. That's going to mean they will be big, with knockon effects on RM destroyer design.

Given the timescale, the French might go for building a few CVL rather than CV's which will take them a long time to build (a slightly larger Colossus with a deck park can match the Germans air wing)

I figure the "pb's" will be slower than the OTL Ryujo as the Germans would at least install minimal armor over some critical spaces and would make the bow more seaworthy; so maybe on the order of 27 knots or roughly what the otl pb's were

The british turned a blind eye to flagrant versailles violations in 1934 (including construction of u-boats) and went about setting a new policy anyway... the british knew about the secret flying school in lipetsk and the tank school at kazan and did nothing; 30 pilots a year for 4 years aboard japanese vessels is not par say scarier than those other items

i allotted ark a sister to be available prior to case white so no issues there plus a modernization of the other 4 large carriers giving them 2 big carriers for each german light carrier and a total aircraft capacity of 3.4+ to 1 in a fleet engagement (assuming the AM makes the planes available)

assuming an otlish AG Naval agreement is reached, the carriers wouldn't violate it as the Germans would understate the tonnage of the three vessels to roughly equal the otl GZ tonnage; also without the twins, along with their usual understating/cheating on displacement the three battlewagons would still be within bounds; and so long as they retired the three shitty interwar light cruisers they would be allowed to build the three new light cruisers and still be in compliance
 
Given that the 3 out of the 4 Illustrious were launched in 39 could we see more effort to get them completed before that? Or to get them worked up and commissioned sooner than OTL?
 
I figure the "pb's" will be slower than the OTL Ryujo as the Germans would at least install minimal armor over some critical spaces and would make the bow more seaworthy; so maybe on the order of 27 knots or roughly what the otl pb's were

The british turned a blind eye to flagrant versailles violations in 1934 (including construction of u-boats) and went about setting a new policy anyway... the british knew about the secret flying school in lipetsk and the tank school at kazan and did nothing; 30 pilots a year for 4 years aboard japanese vessels is not par say scarier than those other items

i allotted ark a sister to be available prior to case white so no issues there plus a modernization of the other 4 large carriers giving them 2 big carriers for each german light carrier and a total aircraft capacity of 3.4+ to 1 in a fleet engagement (assuming the AM makes the planes available)

assuming an otlish AG Naval agreement is reached, the carriers wouldn't violate it as the Germans would understate the tonnage of the three vessels to roughly equal the otl GZ tonnage; also without the twins, along with their usual understating/cheating on displacement the three battlewagons would still be within bounds; and so long as they retired the three shitty interwar light cruisers they would be allowed to build the three new light cruisers and still be in compliance

I agree thats its unlikely the British do much openly, they didnt in OTL.
But they did actually do stuff 'under the radar' as it were, it just never gets much publicity.

27 knots is going to be a problem for a carrier :)
There was a reason the RN and USN made theirs fast...:eek::)
 
I agree thats its unlikely the British do much openly, they didnt in OTL.
But they did actually do stuff 'under the radar' as it were, it just never gets much publicity.

27 knots is going to be a problem for a carrier :)
There was a reason the RN and USN made theirs fast...:eek::)

the ryujo unlike the GZ had a very long range though (10k miles at 14 knots) which would allow her to patrol for long period of time (provisions allowing)

the old courageous class ladies would find maintaining speed difficult and would be well outranged by the German light carriers

the real threats in terms of hunting down fleeing German light carriers would would ark and sister

GZ was a blazing fast girl 35 knots :eek: albeit for a short distance; no British ship was going going to catch her if she ran from an engagement
 
Ryujo

Ryujo was a very bad compromise. It had been meant to have a single hangar and a 24 aircraft air group, but it was given a second one on top of the first, making it very top heavy. It also had a short flight deck and near zero protection to minimise weight problems. If you're going for a c14000 CL on a hull that can pass for a cruiser and sail on the Atlantic you might consider a (hinsighted) German version of Saipan.
This would be along the lines of:
14000t standard
33knts
10000nm at 15knt
48 Aircraft
8x105mm AA (4x2, sponson mounted)
16x37mm AA (8x2)

A balanced air group of 16 each of Bf109T1, Ju87C (your R) and Fi167. (a torpedo version of the Ju87 was considered, but I like the Fi167)
 

BlondieBC

Banned
i allotted ark a sister to be available prior to case white so no issues there plus a modernization of the other 4 large carriers giving them 2 big carriers for each german light carrier and a total aircraft capacity of 3.4+ to 1 in a fleet engagement (assuming the AM makes the planes available)

The 30% ratio of German to UK Navy seems to be fine from the UK perspective. The RN will likely ask for more ships, but it will die in the budget process somewhere. I could even see some of your modernization plans going slowly at least at first, because there is no clear panic line here for the RN such as the Germany having 50% of the airplanes of the RN (at least in theory). The U-boats would be a lot more of a concern, and if these don't bring up a reaction, I doubt a few carriers would cause a strong reaction.

I am even less sure the French react. I am not familiar with their interwar politics in detail, but France is largely immune from a German Naval action with a German surface fleet of this size. And France would expect RN help, so the German versus combined RN/FN ratio even looks better. Now I can also see the additional changes you suggest, since they don't really look like budget busters.
 
The 30% ratio of German to UK Navy seems to be fine from the UK perspective. The RN will likely ask for more ships, but it will die in the budget process somewhere. I could even see some of your modernization plans going slowly at least at first, because there is no clear panic line here for the RN such as the Germany having 50% of the airplanes of the RN (at least in theory). The U-boats would be a lot more of a concern, and if these don't bring up a reaction, I doubt a few carriers would cause a strong reaction.

I am even less sure the French react. I am not familiar with their interwar politics in detail, but France is largely immune from a German Naval action with a German surface fleet of this size. And France would expect RN help, so the German versus combined RN/FN ratio even looks better. Now I can also see the additional changes you suggest, since they don't really look like budget busters.

The French navy was geared towards a possible war (on its own) with Italy, with a secondary Atlantic (with the RN as senior partner) and Colonial capability.
The Dunkerque and Strasbourg were partly an answer to the German PB, but they were also excelent all around ships. German cariers would probably acelerate develpment of the planned French carriers.

JOFFRE model.jpg
 
Interesting design. Why would they want 8 guns on the carrier??? The superstructure is quite unlike any other carrier in existence in the '30s.
 
The guns were DP, as in the Essex class. the Island was large and the flight deck was offset to compensate for the weight. 18000t standard, they had an armoured deck, could do 33knts and were meant for a 40 Aircraft Airgroup, to be composed of imported Wildcats and Vindicators, along with LN401 dive bombers.
 

Flubber

Banned
Apart from the fact that Manstein didn't put in an appearance, that Germany in it's long ship building experience chose the shittiest IJN carrier to license, that "secret" recordings apparently made by Nazi super-science iPhones instead of those bulky period cameras swayed whatever processes went on in Hitler's mind, that Nazi Germany is building a navy for use against the UK at the same time Nazi Germany wants an alliance with the UK or at least a neutral UK just like their "successful" Wilhelmine Germany predecessors, and several other imponderables, I find the most shocking part of this "time line" to be the fact that Theo got Hermann off drugs with tough love.

If that could happen I suppose the rest of this could... :rolleyes:
 
Apart from the fact that Manstein didn't put in an appearance, that Germany in it's long ship building experience chose the shittiest IJN carrier to license, that "secret" recordings apparently made by Nazi super-science iPhones instead of those bulky period cameras swayed whatever processes went on in Hitler's mind, that Nazi Germany is building a navy for use against the UK at the same time Nazi Germany wants an alliance with the UK or at least a neutral UK just like their "successful" Wilhelmine Germany predecessors, and several other imponderables, I find the most shocking part of this "time line" to be the fact that Theo got Hermann off drugs with tough love.

If that could happen I suppose the rest of this could... :rolleyes:

With the early POD date Ryujo is the only ship available from a nation ameanable to dealing with the Germans (assuming the Germans sell out the chinese) that can be reasonably copied, and it it's smaller size it wouldn't represent a major overtax of the economy or production

Germany's navy was built for commerce interdiction against British assets despite their purported desire for an understanding

It's not like Hitler needs great persuasion to build carriers; he did build (but not complete) 2 and was always interested in new weapons systems. The three light carriers would represent similar tonnage to the otl graf zeppelin

Morphine is a powerful drug that is easy to become addicted to. HG was not an addict prior to his being shot (i'd need morphine if I was shot in the groin to); an early intervention against him by someone he respects or regards as an equal like Theo may have nipped the problem in the bud. Hitler may well not have stood for it but he was in jail
 

Flubber

Banned
With the early POD date Ryujo is the only ship available from a nation ameanable to dealing with the Germans (assuming the Germans sell out the chinese) that can be reasonably copied, and it it's smaller size it wouldn't represent a major overtax of the economy or production.

Ryujo was a seaplane tender quickly pencil whipped into a carrier when Japan realized the WNT had an exploitable loophole concerning carrier tonnage. While adding a second hangar definitely didn't help, her initial design was so poor she spent more than a year in the yards being modified after being commissioned.

Even a navy without carrier experience would recognize Ryujo's design as fundamentally flawed and overly modified. Furthermore, seeing as Ryujo in her final condition was a treaty violation, I find it hard to believe that the IJN would hand over blueprints confirming that fact to anyone. After all, we're talking about a nation who wove dozens of miles of sisal mats to shroud Yamato and Mushashi from sight during their construction.

Germany needs flight deck experience and not a failed "seaplane tender on steroids" design. Germany needs their own Langely or Glorious and a pilot training program with the IJN.

It's not like Hitler needs great persuasion to build carriers; he did build (but not complete) 2 and was always interested in new weapons systems. The three light carriers would represent similar tonnage to the otl graf zeppelin.

I'm quite sure Hitler signed off on construction and then never gave those ships another serious thought. We all know how Nazi Germany was "managed". Hitler led the life of a stereotypical "eastern despot" while various Nazi mandarins scurried about fighting each other for power and prestige while pushing their personal agendas.

Morphine is a powerful drug that is easy to become addicted to.

I've been prescribed it.

... an early intervention against him by someone he respects or regards as an equal like Theo may have nipped the problem in the bud.

Someone Goering respects or regards as an equal? Goering was a crawler, he either bullied people or feared them. There was no chance of him respecting anyone.

Then again, maybe Manstein could help?
 
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