Our Treaty of Versailles

[Aussey]

Reasons for the independent lands of Greater Alsace & Lorraine:

Ethnic Differences:

Alsace proper had not been French until the 16th Century. The Alsatian Language is different from both the French AND German languages. The Alsatian peoples do not believe in seperation of church and state. The Alsatian culture is at stake if re-ceded to France.

Lorraine has been an independent nation until the mid-1700s, when it was conquered by France. Though the dialect of Alsatian spoke in this area is different (more French influenced), it is still unique.

HIstory:

Both Alsace and Lorraine were ceded to the new German Empire after the Franco-Prussian War of 1870 to 1871 causing an estimate of 50,000 people (of a total population of about a million) to emigrate to France. Alsace remained a part of Germany until the end of World War I, when Germany ceded it back to France under the Treaty of Versailles. However, U.S. President Woodrow Wilson believed that the region was self-ruling by legal status, as its constitution had stated it was bound to the sole authority of the Kaiser and not to the German State. Correspondingly, the regional government of Alsace-Lorraine declared independence, but could not resist the French who overtook it a week later. They offered no chance of a plebiscite, granted to some eastern German territories at this time.

The area has been chopped up, and disputed, yet the peoples in the area all share a common brotherhood amongst one another.

-With an indpendent Greater Alsace & Lorraine, there is no dispute between Germany/German nations and France. The area wanted by both would be sovereign and free of both.

Proposed Federation of Greater Alsace & Lorraine:

 

[NomadicSky]

Proposed Federation of Greater Alsace & Lorraine

France won't like this idea and they were part of the winning team

 

[fhaessig]

Reply to Aussey

1) I think Wikipedia goofed on that one. Alsace population in 1870 was 1,600,000. Out of which 50,000 to 100,000 immediately left for France. A lot more followed before 1914 ( in toto, above 600,000 alsatian left Alsace during prussian occupation ). - source : Quid 1999 -.

2) The language in Lorraine is definitely not a version of Alsatian, unless you're speaking about some very small parts of Moselle.

3) In OTL, Alsace did keep the Concordat ( and still does : there is no separation of Church and State in 3 french department ).

4) By 1870 ( and even more by 1918 ) being french WAS an integral part of the Alsacian culture. There were some disillusion in the early 1920s due to some stupid policies, but these weren't known in 1918. As an aside, remember the real name of the fench national anthem.

 

[benedict XVII]

Reply to Aussey

1) I think Wikipedia goofed on that one. Alsace population in 1870 was 1,600,000. Out of which 50,000 to 100,000 immediately left for France. A lot more followed before 1914 ( in toto, above 600,000 alsatian left Alsace during prussian occupation ). - source : Quid 1999 -.

2) The language in Lorraine is definitely not a version of Alsatian, unless you're speaking about some very small parts of Moselle.

3) In OTL, Alsace did keep the Concordat ( and still does : there is no separation of Church and State in 3 french department ).

4) By 1870 ( and even more by 1918 ) being french WAS an integral part of the Alsacian culture. There were some disillusion in the early 1920s due to some stupid policies, but these weren't known in 1918. As an aside, remember the real name of the fench national anthem.

I've actually realized Wikipedia apparently took its information (word for word in some parts) from a nationalist Alsatian web-site. The party they represent got a glorious 0.76% of the Alsatian vote in tha last elections.

 

[Nicole]

In Dalmatia, the best solution is to give the Austro-Hungarian province of Dalmatia to Italy, and give the Hungarian coast to Yugoslavia (though you have to determine Fiume)

I'd like to see an independent Montenegro... They were Allies OTL, but the Serbs essentially forced them to give up their independence.

 

[Aussey]

Reply to, well, everyone:

One must remember- a LARGE influx of Pro-French Alsatians (and when I say that, I'm including Lorrainians) left A-L for the USA after the Franco-Prussian War. True is for the Pro-German Alsatians left A-L for the USA after the Great War. So we're left with Alsatians(and Lorrainians) dedicated to their homeland.

ALSO- Though the Concordat is still intact, other aspects such as the usage of Alsatian language, and other Germannic customs weren't permitted, and fell out of use until Regional Revivals later in the 20th century.

And the Regional dialect of Lorraine IS different from French and German, though is NOT Alsatian.

A typical mis-interpretation of the area is that Alsace is the more-German of the two, and Lorraine is the more-French. Over-generalization of the above to facts is what has caused multiple dividings of the area throughout history.

ALSO! The Alsatian-Lorrainian peoples welcomed the proclomation of a Republic, though it was by Soviets, during the Great War. I know from family members in the area, that the locals planned to use to declaration of a republic, to turn it into a revived Duchy of Lorraine (with Alsace, and without a Duke, of course), as a modern, Western nation. ((The peoples ALSO welcomed a smaller-scale proclomation of a soviet republic in WWII: as opposed to rule by France, Vichy France, Weimar Germany, or the German Reich)).

Aside from Corsica, Alsace (and to a lesser degree, Lorraine) is one of the main regions in France desiring independence. Had it been EARLIER (like this ATL proposes: end of WWI), the Lorrainians too, and the Saarlander and other German counties, would have desired independence, in a greater Federation, republic.

 

[LordKalvan]

Body count is different from results. A lot of nations bled in this war. The real question is how much did they contribute to the final victory. But I'll grant you that they paid a price. And I did say that they should get what they wanted.

You can look at it in two ways: OTL, the Italians held the Isonzo and the Dolomites fronts, forcing A-H and Germany to divert substantial resources in troops and supplies. The A-H fleet was bottled in the Adriatic. Please don't mention Caporetto (which is quite similar to the last Ludendorff offensive in 1918). When Entente and american troops were diverted to Italy, the new front was already stabilised on the Piave river. The CPs simply did not have the resources to do more than what they did OTL (and, again, in 1918 on the Western front it was quite similar). The Dolomites front could not be broken: if you visit the region, the fortifications built on both sides between 1870 and WW1 are quite impressive. The majority of the battlefields are at 1500 mt asl, or above; and the river valleys can be easily interdicted by artillery and fortresses. The 12 battles on the Isonzo accounted for the majority of losses on both sides (300,000 Italians and 200,000 A-H), but were all indecisive (to bridge the Isonzo was quite difficult, given the nature of terrain. And according to Murphy's Law the years between 1914-1918 registered the highest floods in a century).A neutral Italy would have freed substantial A-H armies to finish up Serbia early, and concentrate on Russia. please note that the roads in Bosnia and Dalmatia were too poor to allow an Entente attack from a bridge-head on the Adriatic coast. An Italy on the CP side would have
created major problems to France (alpine border, and combined Italian/AH fleets interdicting transport of troops from French North Africa). Effectively, the naval situation in the Mediterranean would be quite critical for the Entente.

But they didn't. We'll give them their wish list mostly, I think.

Are you sure? the wish list included all of Dalmatia and the Adriatic coast, South Tyrol, a protectorate on the whole of Albania and on Montenegro, and colonial gains both in Africa and in southern Turkey/Middle East.

 

[DaSla]

how could German South-West Africa remain in German control or be in control of one of its successer states? it did have a # of German Settelers in that colony.

 

[Nicole]

South Africa captured that territory, you'll have to make concessions to them...

 

[Glen]

Avoiding the societal collapse in Germany still requires a solution to the debt issue.

Actually, though there were some rough times in the early 1920s, German society did okay for the rest of the decade until the Great Depression, at which point their debt issues essentially went away anyhow.

Unless someone can somehow explain the Allies not seeking any reparations or compensation for German crimes AND paying Germany's own debts the German economy is going to collapse a few years after WWI.

Amazingly, it didn't completely collapse IOTL, and was stabilized by some heroic monetary stabilization and diplomacy. If we could avoid all that energy having to go into just stabilizing the nation to begin with, there might be a more robust government in place to deal with the Depression when it hits. Or, we cut it up into bite sized chunks to begin with...

I suppose if we have someone shoot that lunatic Ludendorf before he can destroy the French coal mines then the Saar stays in German hands but in fact there was a strong desire in France to try cracking up Germany post-war.

Nice thought, but no POD before the beginning of the conference. Basically we have to imagine that some PODs are occuring during the wrangling of the conference attendees and the people lobbying them.

How about if Austria and Bavaria(and the rest of southern Germany) is united under the Bavarian monarchy while a major propaganda campaign against the Protestants who bled poor Catholic Bavaria white is launched?

Interesting thought...so basically we will be replacing the Nazis with a Christian religious scism and a new Thirty Years War?

Bavaria and Austria choosing to unite might happen, though it will probably be a republic. But that won't really help the future that much, except to possibly make the dictatorship that arises there a small one. Of course, they could then choose to re-unite with the rest of Germany...or end up going to war with them.

 

[Glen]

Better yet, how about a two-pronged assault?

1) Wilson's lunatic decision to force out the Kaiser does not take place and

IIRC, Wilson didn't force out the Kaiser. He was removed through internal dissent before Versailles ever occured.

[/QUOTE]
2) Terms even harsher than Versailles are proposed.

After the crying and screaming in Germany dies down a bit the Allies announce that a republic might be able to improve the terms slightly.

NOW the Kaiser is expelled.[/QUOTE]

Again, the problem is that the Kaiser has already been removed and the Republic proclaimed by then.[/QUOTE]

Major revisions are made in the treaty, including some which were actually planned by the allies all along. The new Weimar Republic has saved Germany much grief and becomes more popular and stable.

We could still do this, but just say that the Republic was able to negotiate a better deal. Of course, that would mean that at some point they would actually be invited to negotiate, rather than being handed a fait accompli by the victors.

Possible changes:

The Saar Basin is specifically to be held by France only until the French mines are repaired(with a time limit in the event of French procratination). The Germans are certain this vast coal field WILL return and are reminded that this only took place because of Ludendorf's destruction of occupied French coal mines in the last weeks of the war.

Okay.

German naval tonnage is set as an amount, not a series of ridiculously small ships. If Germany wants a single Tirpitz instead of 6 pocket battleships, fine.

Sounds reasonable. However, I think it would be even more powerful if some sort of formula as percentage were arranged, with caps and restrictions of some sort for everyone. If it were made clear that Germany was being held down to numbers that would be sufficient for defense but not offense, and that all the powers were trying to commit themselves to a more peaceful Europe at Paris by agreeing to their own limits (though not as much as the Germans and others...they did win, after all). The treaty the British made with the Germans later regarding relative naval strengths is a good example of this. Maybe a feel-good ban on chemical warfare, which none of them will be very fond of using again anyway. But no specific verboten weapons unique to Germany, which didn't work very well anyway.

Modest German rearmament to be permitted starting five years after the treaty is signed, with further negotiations ten years after that. Perhaps 20,000 a year with appropriate armaments? This leaves Germany with 300,000 men in 1934. Likewise concessions on tanks and subs, if only to stop German specialists from starting U-boat concessions in a dozen other nations.

Right. But the big problem is the large number of restless men you will pour into Germany from the military if you make them cut back immediately. Instead, offer a more gradual stand-down, with the excess soldiers being sent to fight the Reds in Russia with the Entente forces until they are down to numbers that are only appropriate for defense. That will give a boost to the efforts in the East while allowing the Germans some breathing space for their stand-down, and not throwing a bunch of unemployed fighters into the streets at once.

A single German colony to be returned(East Africa?) for the sake of prestige.

Naw. The colonies wouldn't be a big deal to Germany after this. We strip them to keep the Entente happy, and to give Germany less incentive to build up their navy in future. But maybe give them some credit off their reparations for the value of the colonies (and similarly for any ships turned over to the Allies...if the Navy knows that this will ease the reparation burden on the Nation, they might be less inclined to scuttle them at Scarpa Flow).

And so forth.

Unfortunately the economic crunch is going to happen regardless.

Right you are.

 

[Glen]

Reasons for the independent lands of Greater Alsace & Lorraine:

Ethnic Differences:

Alsace proper had not been French until the 16th Century. The Alsatian Language is different from both the French AND German languages.

That could be said about any number of regions of France or Germany, but it is a point.

The Alsatian peoples do not believe in seperation of church and state.

Aussey, I suspect it is more that YOU don't believe in a separation of church and state. And I don't see this being in any way an argument for or against their independence from Germany and France.

The Alsatian culture is at stake if re-ceded to France.

Well, cultures come and go. But how is this going to convince France not to reclaim them.

Lorraine has been an independent nation until the mid-1700s, when it was conquered by France. Though the dialect of Alsatian spoke in this area is different (more French influenced), it is still unique.

HIstory:


The area has been chopped up, and disputed, yet the peoples in the area all share a common brotherhood amongst one another.

-With an indpendent Greater Alsace & Lorraine, there is no dispute between Germany/German nations and France. The area wanted by both would be sovereign and free of both.

Proposed Federation of Greater Alsace & Lorraine:

Well, a good argument with the history section (not shown above) if they actually did declare their independence. Problem is, you're going to have to convince France why this is good for France. Maybe a buffer A-L would be best if we could figure it...the area has been a bone of contention in two wars now. However, how do you sell an independent A-L when the French have been screaming since 1871 for its return?

Maybe we make it a League Mandate slated for a pleblicite with the options of Joining France or becoming Independent (doubt we could sell letting there be an option of rejoining Germany...France would throw a hissy fit, but they could possibly live with an independent A-L). Swiss mercs to keep order in the area until the vote?

 

[benedict XVII]

Aussey, I suspect it is more that YOU don't believe in a separation of church and state. And I don't see this being in any way an argument for or against their independence from Germany and France.

It's actually true that attempts to impose the French "laïque" system in A-L led to much unrest in the 1920's. But eventually, the French Government agreed to leave A-L under the Concordat system up to this day.

Maybe we make it a League Mandate slated for a pleblicite with the options of Joining France or becoming Independent (doubt we could sell letting there be an option of rejoining Germany...France would throw a hissy fit, but they could possibly live with an independent A-L). Swiss mercs to keep order in the area until the vote?

Well, in spite of real clumsiness by the French authorities after WWI, the autonomist (I'm not even saying independentist, or German irredentists, which would have been a very small part of this) parties never got more than 30% of the vote in A-L. So, the outcome of plebiscite would have been pretty clear. One shouldn't read in the proclamation of a Socialist Republic in A-L anything more than what happened in multiple places around Europe at the time: a coup with dubious popular legitimacy.

 

[Glen]

It's actually true that attempts to impose the French "laïque" system in A-L led to much unrest in the 1920's. But eventually, the French Government agreed to leave A-L under the Concordat system up to this day.




Well, in spite of real clumsiness by the French authorities after WWI, the autonomist (I'm not even saying independentist, or German irredentists, which would have been a very small part of this) parties never got more than 30% of the vote in A-L. So, the outcome of plebiscite would have been pretty clear. One shouldn't read in the proclamation of a Socialist Republic in A-L anything more than what happened in multiple places around Europe at the time: a coup with dubious popular legitimacy.

What would the result of a pleblicite in Alsace and Lorraine be?

 

[Hermanubis]

What would the result of a pleblicite in Alsace and Lorraine be?

Seems they would want to join France

 

[Nicole]

I think an Armenia with sane borders (say, OTL Armenia + Nakhichevan) should be created... I think that if Armenia wasnt busy trying to conquer what had been assigned to it and the countries around it (Azerbaijan), it could resist Sovietization....

 

[Hermanubis]

I think an Armenia with sane borders (say, OTL Armenia + Nakhichevan) should be created... I think that if Armenia wasnt busy trying to conquer what had been assigned to it and the countries around it (Azerbaijan), it could resist Sovietization....

Wasn’t it part of the Soviet Union at this point? If so, the only Armenia your going to get is one carved out of Turkey…

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

I think an Armenia with sane borders (say, OTL Armenia + Nakhichevan) should be created... I think that if Armenia wasnt busy trying to conquer what had been assigned to it and the countries around it (Azerbaijan), it could resist Sovietization....

Well Kars and Van would be included in those sane borders. But it's really more a question of Kemal's actions.

 

[benedict XVII]

Seems they would want to join France

With an overwhelming majority. The good thing about a plebiscite would have been that the French Government would have had to make a number of committments to assuage local concerns, on, e.g., the Concordat or the Alsatian language. Would have avoided many of the mistakes.

 

[Wendell]

If we split Germany, what about something like this?

Merge Hannover with the Federation of the Rhine, and call the whole mess Westphalia, or Pfaltzland. Also, let one or two of them retain a monarchy...