A different history of the American socialist movement combined with the butterflying of the Progressive Era leads to a more intense involvement of the US in World War I and an eventual communist revolution when a reactionary coup tries to undo a Socialist election victory. The (former) US and USSR compete to lead the global Marxist movement and the Franco-British Union becomes the standard-bearer of global capitalism (with Objectivism!).
"Our Struggle": What If Hitler Had Been a Communist?
- Thread starter The Red
- Start date
I enjoyed it. It's pretty thorough and pretty interesting.
If I recall correctly, a 1936 map showed the Reactionaries still holding on East Prussia. I don't know if that was retconned though.
I don't recall if that was the case either but I don't think it was.
For an easy expansion of the German Red Army, they can integrate the Roter Frontkampferbund with elements of the Reichswehr loyal to the reds.
On the topic of the East Prussian Reactionary remnant - well, I can't see that lasting too long. Such a state is very fragile for numerous reasons.
Once the civil war wraps up, the conditions are RIPE for the French Far Right to prosper, when their tradition enemy has become communist at that point.
Assuming FDR wins the presidency, he won't join the European War TTL. Probably still a pacific war, but FDR very unironically loved Stalin - not even because he was a mere co allied power, but it actually went to before that - I like FDR but I can't get passed his admiration for Stalin.
I will say as a conservative my self, being unbiased and objective, I don't think the Soviet Union or Germany for that matter TTL can be ousted and occupied like the OTL Fascist Regimes. Not only the FDR factor, but additionally Germany and the Soviet Union's combined industrial might cannot really be challenged by any sort of Franco British Italian pact. I say France will be lucky if it even survives, but even that is questionable, France might just fall to the red tide, Eurasia in general actually.
The British working class at this point will not be very willing to support any sort of war, it is not like the comintern (while still authoritarian nightmare in my opinion) are the straight up sadistic evil of Nazi Germany OTL.
This may well result in a really aggressive cold war - Socialist Eurasia against a capitalist Anglo Sphere and colonial regimes that are generally exile ones in Africa. It also may be one that is longer than our OTL counterpart, as the Soviet Union lacks key disadvantages it has OTL. It has an actual strong sovereign European ally to work with, (germany) so it will not be over extended, communist Eurasia should have far larger resource pool and additionally not be spread out so extreme, and additionally, once Hitler dies, as will Stalin, both states can probably moderate to a greater extent than they did OTL as there will be no serious threat to their security given their increased power.
Ironically while the Americans focus in the pacific, the Comiterm may just invade Korea and Manchuria, making it an effective co belligerent for a time.
On the topic of the East Prussian Reactionary remnant - well, I can't see that lasting too long. Such a state is very fragile for numerous reasons.
Once the civil war wraps up, the conditions are RIPE for the French Far Right to prosper, when their tradition enemy has become communist at that point.
Assuming FDR wins the presidency, he won't join the European War TTL. Probably still a pacific war, but FDR very unironically loved Stalin - not even because he was a mere co allied power, but it actually went to before that - I like FDR but I can't get passed his admiration for Stalin.
I will say as a conservative my self, being unbiased and objective, I don't think the Soviet Union or Germany for that matter TTL can be ousted and occupied like the OTL Fascist Regimes. Not only the FDR factor, but additionally Germany and the Soviet Union's combined industrial might cannot really be challenged by any sort of Franco British Italian pact. I say France will be lucky if it even survives, but even that is questionable, France might just fall to the red tide, Eurasia in general actually.
The British working class at this point will not be very willing to support any sort of war, it is not like the comintern (while still authoritarian nightmare in my opinion) are the straight up sadistic evil of Nazi Germany OTL.
This may well result in a really aggressive cold war - Socialist Eurasia against a capitalist Anglo Sphere and colonial regimes that are generally exile ones in Africa. It also may be one that is longer than our OTL counterpart, as the Soviet Union lacks key disadvantages it has OTL. It has an actual strong sovereign European ally to work with, (germany) so it will not be over extended, communist Eurasia should have far larger resource pool and additionally not be spread out so extreme, and additionally, once Hitler dies, as will Stalin, both states can probably moderate to a greater extent than they did OTL as there will be no serious threat to their security given their increased power.
Ironically while the Americans focus in the pacific, the Comiterm may just invade Korea and Manchuria, making it an effective co belligerent for a time.
I don't think that Britain went to war against Nazi Germany in OTL because the Nazis were sadistic and evil (though they certainly were). If they were persecuting German Jews horribly and leaving other countries alone, the West wouldn't have cared. Britain went to war against Nazi Germany because it is not in Britain's national interest to abandon France and allow a single aggressive expansionist state to control the resources of the whole of Europe. Fascist Hitler's Germany was aggressive, expansionist, and in 1939 (by the record of recent history) demonstrably untrustworthy and intent on conquering Europe. ATL Communist Hitler's Germany will likely also have these traits. I don't know if it will kick off in Czechoslovakia, Poland or somewhere out of left field like Spain, but the text has told us that ATL Communist Hitler's "German Ideology" places much more emphasis on violent military expansion (rather than internal revolution) than ordinary Marxism-Leninism does, and I'm pretty sure that will mean war with France and Britain eventually.
I think Johnharry was making the point that OTL, the British working class was pretty heavily committed to complete the destruction of the Nazi state. The Blitz, rationing, threats of invasion, and V2 rockets never really challenged the working class' support for continuing WWII to the bitter end. ATL, when the enemy is ideologically much more appealing to British working class interests, the will might not be there in the same way. No doubt the British state and ruling class have a heavy interest in making sure a militaristic, hyper expansionist, Communist state doesn't dominate European resources. But British labor might not have those same interests, and strikes during wartime can be crippling.
I think you are missing my point. Without the Nazi's evil, the British working class will not really be enthusiastic for such a war effort to be honest. People forget how reluctant for some time the working class of the west was willing to support a war against Nazi Germany OTL, only really doing so when realizing the dire situation on the ground. Fighting two socialist states, one of which is able to threaten India and much of the British sphere in Asia is not going to sell well.
Yes, war will occur, with both the Germans and Soviets as revealed in a trailer, but how long will the working class be willing to support it?
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Im sure there will be plenty of Atrocities which the Germans commit when the war kicks off to make sure the Public is sufficently outraged to eliminate doubt in most minds, especially with Propaganda broadcasts and ministry reenforcing it.
But for at least eleven years? Regardless of how much propaganda is forced down the throats of the Allied people, I don't think they're going to stomach a war against two industrial and military behemoths for more than a decade.
Especially considering the US public hadn't been properly 'red-scared' yet. In the aftermath of the Great Depression they're not going to want war with a foreign power unless it attacks them directly - like Japan did - and they only supported involvement in Europe OTL because Japan was allied with the Germans. In this timeline, they don't really hold anything against Germany or the USSR, so they're not really going to be particularly enthused about fighting them.
Beyond which, consider the toll the war will have on the US economy. Things went well for them OTL because they were fighting a few economically-inferior, war-weary opponents for only four years. However, the USSR at least will have incredible industrial capacity - it isn't interrupted by a Nazi invasion ITTL, after all, so they'll be much more capable of supporting a war if Red Germany isn't.
Unless you have a holocaust 2.0, not really. The western public will see it as akin to the propaganda of WWI otherwise, so it won't really work. Even OTL, the holocaust was denied fairly widely early on, despite its magnitude, because of WWI propaganda. In this case, there won't be any holocaust, there will probably be much less severe crimes even than WWI, and the public will simply not buy it. Eric Blair defecting to the Comitern shows what direction the British left will be going, anyway. Unlikely people only slightly more centre then him will SUPPORT a war against it. Granted...Britain could go ultra reactionary.
There won't be a holocaust, there won't be lebensraum, and it is likely at least on the western front, rules of war will be mostly followed. Even assuming say, excessive civilians casualties occur due to bombing, it may not be enough for citizens to wan't to die for, especially if they feel their government dragged them into this crisis.
Its also important to know that the worst regime in this timeline as far as I can tell is the Italian Social Republic, one can look at their attrocities towards Slavs Libyans and Ethiopians OTL to see what the public will be looking at TTL.
This Germany isn't anti semitic by all accounts in the trailers, Hitler will probably still be fairly crazy especially if he retains his meth addiction, but that might manifest itself more into outlandish battle plans he has.
Regardless, America is essentially not going to enter no matter what. Churchill admired Stalin and will still mainly focus on Japan, a capitalist colonial nation ttl Hitler won't really care about. Given Japanese Soviet border clashes, potentially America may end up a co comintern belligerent on the East, though that is perhaps questionable.
If Britain enters the war, the Comitern can steamroll the mideast fairly quick and begin to enter India. Bose, who initially looked to the soviets to free India but got snubbed OTL, will gladly co operate with them in this timeline. It's important to know Indians had no love for the British, and despite Japanese atrocities against their POWs, the Indian public wanted to pardon collaborators upon independence as the collaborators were seen by many as patriots against colonialism and Bose today has a very popular legacy.
Even though Germany may be recovery slightly still by 1936 due to the civil war, it is important to note in 1936 Italy is even MORE unprepared than OTL as well. Especially given they may be tied fighting Ethiopians as well in this. Austro Fascist Regime was infamously unpopular and many Austrians will welcome red Germany.
The odds aren't good for the anti comintern - they will be lucky to even get a stalemate to be honest, a socialist Eurasia seems most likely though.
Yeah, US entering on the side of the capitalist powers is ASB. Roosevelt admired Stalin (even before WWII) and is far more focused on the Japanese "rising sun" than the comintern in all likely hood. The comintern won't care about Japan and will likely be more than happy to accommodate a destruction of a threat in the East.
Potentially actually this may lead America to become a breif co belligerent against the Comiterm, as the Soviets may take the chance to seize Manchuria and then perhaps do a joint Invasion of the Islands with the US.
Hate to break it to you, but I believe it was implied in Chapter XXVII that not only had the US sided with Britain by 1947, but also that the Comintern was starting to lose the war.
I wouldn't say it's ASB, especially considering the divergences and subsequent butterflies that have already occurred in the timeline. It would be very easy for America to experience a "red scare," especially after a successful communist revolution in Germany. If Red Germany or the USSR were to try to, say, incite a communist revolution in America that would most certainly turn America against them. And I wouldn't put it past the Comintern to try that.
There's also Mexico. Perhaps there will be a Comintern version of the Zimmerman Telegram? I believe its too late for any interference in the Mexican Revolution - but a more socialist/leftist Mexico after the revolution could easily make Americans fear communism as well.
I don’t doubt that the Comintern could be demonised in the West in this timeline - hell, maybe the Business Plot could even succeed, in which case they could frame the CPUSA for any number of things. But a Communist Zimmerman Telegram? That seems a bit too outlandish.
Well, it's entirely possible that Giuseppe Zangara's assassination attempt on FDR (assuming that still occurs in TTL) could be seen by some Americans as a plot by the Comitern to start a revolution in the US, which could lead to a surge in anti-socialist behavior amongst the American population.