Britain could more easily go non fascist reactionary. France is probably going to feel very encircled.
"Our Struggle": What If Hitler Had Been a Communist?
- Thread starter The Red
- Start date
Britain could more easily go non fascist reactionary. France is probably going to feel very encircled.
so bigger and better equipped but with no professional officer corps and a tendency to show less initiative?
Not nessicarily, If the Germans go into civil war, I could see the new Revolutionary Army getting quite experienced in Modern warfare in a very short amount of time, and taking that expierence when they go off to fight the Italians right off the bat.
Personally id be fascinated to see him, hes a criminally under used figure in my view.
@Emperor Julian used him in the Ruins of an American Party system.
I do find most people assume the west will "win" by default, but the author hinted that is not certain. I think a stalemate and a cold war steriod possible, and honestly, while difficult, a comintern "victory" of sorts not out of the realm of possibility.
The western front wil be harder than OTL for sure, but it also helps the Eastern front just won't be a thing at all.
The soviet german alliance is also poised to be able to threaten asian colonial spheres, from afghanistan to india. The anti colonial nature will also help in terms of popular support from what I can tell to be honest.
Also, I wonder Japan... They may do a sort of gentleman pact of sorts with japan, though possibly turn on them later, inviting Japan to attack the Asian colonies nearby and perhaps try and divide up india. Granted I can't see them "ally" with them and risk war with the United States. And uhhh....FDR... well he had a uncomfortable admiration of stalin unfortunately from what I can tell to be honest.
The western front wil be harder than OTL for sure, but it also helps the Eastern front just won't be a thing at all.
The soviet german alliance is also poised to be able to threaten asian colonial spheres, from afghanistan to india. The anti colonial nature will also help in terms of popular support from what I can tell to be honest.
Also, I wonder Japan... They may do a sort of gentleman pact of sorts with japan, though possibly turn on them later, inviting Japan to attack the Asian colonies nearby and perhaps try and divide up india. Granted I can't see them "ally" with them and risk war with the United States. And uhhh....FDR... well he had a uncomfortable admiration of stalin unfortunately from what I can tell to be honest.
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That is still...debatable. People overlook what Mussolini did in Ethiopia, where quasi genocidal gas warfare was used. There is the whole "incompetent italy" meme, but people forget how nasty they were to Ethiopians in general. Rodolfo Graziani, the "butcher of ethiopia" comes to mind as of now. Perhaps it would be better if you were white and italian domestically in terms of the level of oppression, but you cannot forget the downright evil done towards Italian East Africa or the genocidal campaigns in libya, where arguably half the libyan population perished. Italian fascims might be better than the tanky countries in terms of the domestic oppression and rights...but in terms of overall human rights records...uhhh...debatable, look to ethiopia, look to libya.
Point, Point. I was mainly thinking in terms of what was happening in Europe and domestic oppression, which was stupid of me. I still don't think that if Mussolini fights in World War Two he'll probably be viewed as the lesser evil, in a very similar way to Stalin but yeah, The genocides in Libya and Ethiopia were just as evil as Holodomor or any other one of Stalin's actions... I do wonder though ITTL if Ethiopia at the very least manages to avoid that fate as it seems to me Italy will have there hands full with the Germans. Libya though...if the Commies manage to win and kick out the Italians to Libya, I could see them going more genocidal simply to make room for the Colonists....
A Comintern victory seems rather more likely to me, if only because their war goals would be much more manageable. It seems like Communist Germany and the Soviet Union will just be angling to survive against the combined might of the capitalist world, and any marginal gain could be counted as a win. The capitalist powers are trying to wipe Communism from the face of the planet, and subduing both the Soviet Union and Germany at the same time seems pretty unlikely.
The nuclear bomb and a breakdown between Hitler and Stalin are of course wildcards, but on its face I can't see the Capitalist powers defeating two superpowers, keeping their own working classes in line, and maintaining a hold on their colonies all at the same time.
The nuclear bomb and a breakdown between Hitler and Stalin are of course wildcards, but on its face I can't see the Capitalist powers defeating two superpowers, keeping their own working classes in line, and maintaining a hold on their colonies all at the same time.
I don't know if we should associate the anticolonials TTL with communism. No doubt communist sponsorship will be available in spades for the movements that want it, but depending on how strong/united the Reds are by war's end there's a case to be made that communist anticolonial revolution would just be swapping one hegemon for another. The "non-aligned" tag might be a lot more popular with TTL's postcolonial leaders. And even OTL we got plenty of post-colonial leaders like Senegal's Senghor who were pro-Western and participated in Western political initiatives out of conviction, and others (Mobutu) who were maybe more mercenary in their global alignments. If decolonization proceeds smoothly before the 70s then I don't think the colonies will be too much of an albatross on the West's neck; but if some countries go for suppression instead of negotiation, they shouldn't be surprised when German advisors turn up in places where they shouldn't be.
The problem with taking Italy is bypassing the second most defense-favorable terrain in all the continent and this even without taking in consideration the fortification built on it...frankly going naked against the Maginot Line in a direct attack sound a more feasible plan.
yep, OTL one of the reason Germany got a lot of slack was because it was seen as a counterweight against the URSS, at least London see that way...so Germany go red and i doubt that there is such thing like even accepting a remilitarization of the Rhineland
yeah, pre-1943 Fascist Italy had a massive communist movent in the country...10 even 12 member nationwide
If that was the case it would be rather amazing that it spontaneously popped into existence with such strength in 1943. There is a reason that the history of the Communist movement in Italy between 1924 and 1943 isn’t well documented but it isn’t because it only had 10 to 12 members during that period. What happened was that the party leadership in exile ended up being effectively cut off from Communists inside Italy until 1943, when the party was tacitly legalised in the liberated south which in turn allowed greater communication with the resistance in the German occupied north. Prior to that period it is hard to record events as the movement in Italy was almost entirely underground and badly coordinated.
That said from what can be discerned the movement retained its presence in industrial towns and cities, even when it was more of a mantra than any clandestine organisation. They had a presence and so when the Germans invaded in 1943 there was a large base of old revolutionaries from the early twenties and younger followers ready to begin proper resistance and eventually form the basis of the mass party it would become by the end of the war.
What’s also interesting to note is that the process of Stalinisation never really began to affect the party as it was in Italy until 1943. If there was a non-Stalinist communist power on the Italian border, I wonder if the party inside Italy may have been influenced towards some other strain of Communist thought...
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Just dropping in to say this TL is compelling and awesome, as is that group picture of communist overlords. Also really exciting to see a timeline wherein a woman breaks through the blood-soaked glass ceiling and proves she can be as soul-crushingly authoritarian as any man.
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It happened only thanks to the total and almost absolute collapse of the state due to the extremely bad managed surrender and the German takeover, it was this situation and the coming confusion that permitted the entire resistance movement (it was not only composed by communist but also democristian, socialist and other) to exist and frankly the PCI had a much better infrastructure regarding propaganda and recruitment that used once they had the permission to exist in Italy and come out from their exile. If a similar collapse don't happen...the idea of some revolutionary activity in fascist Italy is realistical like an unicorn; the most efficient group in Italy at the time (and i'm talking NKVD level of capacity) was the OVRA and if someone is so stupid to send some agents to creat trouble he better be prepared to see them come home a piece at the time.
There is no underground, there is nothing except some old socialist that at the moment are in internal exile or under surveillance; hell even my great-greatfather, an anarchic communist, was free only because he married one of his sister to a very big shot of the Fascist Party but even if they had not arrested him he was controlled and basically all his friend.
The activities of the Brigate Garibaldi began less than a fortnight after the German invasion, how did they have such a strength in infrastructure, propaganda and recruitment if they’d only had 10-12 members beforehand?
I realise your original comment was an exaggeration but it’s important not to present the heroic Italian resistance of the CNL as utterly spontaneous purely due to the invasion of a foreign enemy.
The CNL had the possibility of existing only because the state collapsed, otherwise they will have no capacity, no infrastructure, nothing; what had hallowed to operate immediately was a mix of success in recruiting former military personell that had left his post after the armistice, the sheer number of weapons available, the popularity of the regime plummeted due to the lost war and the steady supply the allied gave them and the group in exile that had kept their organization working in foreign land and were succesfull in bring that here...but it was only due to confusion of the goverment falling and the invasion of both the allies and the German that any meaningfull operation can be done, without that any meaningfull, no sorry not even that just any type of communist insurgency is beyond ridicolous.
Seem strange but before three years of a disastrous war, the fascist regime was genuilly supported by the great majority of the population, if there were totally fair election Benny will have been elected PM without much problem; not taking in consideration that at the beginning the entire resistance manpower was less than 2000 men in all occupied territory (and that included former military men and people of different political alignement)
I also personally think that certain countries just shouldn't go fascist/communist or join the Axis/Comintern or anything like that. I guess that wouldn't be as fun, though.
Playing the Berlin-Moscow Axis and as Communist Japan was very fun, though.
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