On the other hand, with Red Austria, does that mean the Commie Skorzeny piece could be canon?
"Our Struggle": What If Hitler Had Been a Communist?
- Thread starter The Red
- Start date
Given that he actively railed against the Kaiser's vanity fleet in Unser Kampf I'm not sure the prestige argument would really fit with Hitler's ideology ITTL.
Well, they did by the end of 1938 but by that time it was too late to make the necessary build-up even if that was ever possible. ITTL there's no romantic notions of the two Germanic empires carving up the world together and the leadership of the DAR are fairly confident that a clash with the UK is inevitable, making the merits of any major naval build-up doubtful.
That’s very much a yes-and-no. Pre-Anschluss Austria was basically divided between Catholic conservatives who verged on clerical fascism at the worst of times (in rural Austria proper and Tyrol), socialists who wanted to create a free German republic (in Vienna and the other industrial cities), and German nationalists who claimed to be “liberal” (in Steiermark, Kärnten and a few other areas). Of these, the first two were about evenly-matched (the conservatives usually edging out the socialists by a narrow margin) while the national-liberals were maybe half as big as either of the others at the best of times. The conservatives, though, were the only ones who really supported the existence of an Austrian state, so in subsequent historiography they painted themselves as the only “Austrian” political force. This was helped when in 1933, the conservative government of Engelbert Dollfuss (otherwise known as “Millimetternich” because he was just under five feet tall) suspended the National Council and started ruling by decree, leading to a socialist rebellion in February 1934 that in turn allowed Dollfuss to crush all opposition and create a full-on fascist dictatorship. From there on out, the dominant struggle was between “Austrofascists” led by Dollfuss and his successor Schuschnigg, who wanted Austria to stay independent and extremely Catholic, and Nazis who wanted to join Germany.
After the whole debacle with Hitler ended in 1945, the new SPÖ and ÖVP, largely the successors of the old socialists and conservatives respectively, said “okay, let’s not do any of this ever again” and proceeded to form a grand coalition and divvy up the whole apparatus of state between them, a system that has continued on and off until the present day.
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Obvious disclaimer that none of these things need be true ITTL, except insofar as the general structure predates the PoD.
You've set the scene very well regardless, it's the sort of post that sums up the point of the comment below:
I just got an idea: If Germany remains relatively tolerant of Jews and it manages to survive World War Two, maybe a talented Ruthless Burecrat by the name of Comrade Kissinger can become General secratary.
Oh my god
Interwar Europe had such devastating nicknames for short people (I'm reminded of "Sciaboletta" for Victor Emmanuel III)
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You know, if TTL’s version of Free France includes (if it isn’t outright dominated by) right-wing figures like Charles Maurras, could this lead to his ideology becoming significantly more popular in post-war France?
The Red
I have a question for you in regard to the eventual World War? My understanding is that the future World War between the United States and Britain and the Comintern would be more like the Napoleonic Wars in terms of length rather than OTL World War 2.
I am not saying that the next war would be not as devastating as OTL World War 2, but that it is not going to be the same as OTL World War 2 either. Hitler will likely dominate Continental Europe but would lack any sort of Navy to attack the British Isles. Britain will likely blockade Germany. The British may suffer from U-Boat attacks but I am not sure that this would be as hurtful if Hitler completely neglected the Navy or if the majority of the Kriegsmarine defected to the German Reich in East Prussia. In OTL World War 2, the Kriegsmarine was vital in the takeover of Norway, despite heavy losses.
I still think that Hitler will build some sort of Navy as a nation like Germany would need a Navy to defend its coast. Military doctrine in the 1930s and early 1940s had little idea of the potential of Aircraft Carriers. The idea of a nation needing a strong big gun navy still predominated naval thought at the time. Germany will likely build a small but powerful fleet and may even try to seize the Italian and French Fleet if they are able to.
But I believe that Hitler would dominate Continental Europe and have an impact as significant as Napoleon. Hitler will change Europe to fit his "communist ideals" as the British and later the Americans try to break the Comintern hold on Europe. Many groups of people will still be persecuted in Hitler's Europe but I am sure that it will not be exactly the same groups that Nazis Hitler persecuted.
Also, I am sure that Comintern Germany will not develop its military and military tactics the same as Nazi Germany.
But overall, my question is how different would the future war be from OTL World War 2?
I have a question for you in regard to the eventual World War? My understanding is that the future World War between the United States and Britain and the Comintern would be more like the Napoleonic Wars in terms of length rather than OTL World War 2.
I am not saying that the next war would be not as devastating as OTL World War 2, but that it is not going to be the same as OTL World War 2 either. Hitler will likely dominate Continental Europe but would lack any sort of Navy to attack the British Isles. Britain will likely blockade Germany. The British may suffer from U-Boat attacks but I am not sure that this would be as hurtful if Hitler completely neglected the Navy or if the majority of the Kriegsmarine defected to the German Reich in East Prussia. In OTL World War 2, the Kriegsmarine was vital in the takeover of Norway, despite heavy losses.
I still think that Hitler will build some sort of Navy as a nation like Germany would need a Navy to defend its coast. Military doctrine in the 1930s and early 1940s had little idea of the potential of Aircraft Carriers. The idea of a nation needing a strong big gun navy still predominated naval thought at the time. Germany will likely build a small but powerful fleet and may even try to seize the Italian and French Fleet if they are able to.
But I believe that Hitler would dominate Continental Europe and have an impact as significant as Napoleon. Hitler will change Europe to fit his "communist ideals" as the British and later the Americans try to break the Comintern hold on Europe. Many groups of people will still be persecuted in Hitler's Europe but I am sure that it will not be exactly the same groups that Nazis Hitler persecuted.
Also, I am sure that Comintern Germany will not develop its military and military tactics the same as Nazi Germany.
But overall, my question is how different would the future war be from OTL World War 2?
You wouldn't be wrong, as one character noted in a previous flash forward the war begins with biplanes still in use and keeps raging on into the jet age.
Oh there will be a Rote Marine, as previously mentioned Hitler rejected the notion of Germany needing a giant fleet ITTL but you still need to defend the Baltic and North Sea coast even if you don't want aspire to go toe to toe with the Royal Navy in the Atlantic.
Pretty much, naturally the DAR isn't as genocidal or racially motivated as the Third Reich but the plan to export German Ideology across Europe won't always be the most subtle of experiences. Especially if you're deemed to be an agent of The International Financier Plot.
Lots of divergence to come here, similar to how DAR society will be alien to that of the Third Reich.
It's a big question, and naturally I won't give too much away at this juncture, but imagine it like a funhouse mirror. Some elements will have similarities, others will be completely unrecognisable, but explicit parallels will (hopefully!) be difficult to find.
Never a terrible tactic in a country that's a quarter German but it may become even more prescient ITTL.
Chapter LXII
"The East knew and to the present day knows only that One is Free; the Greek and Roman world, that some are free; the German World knows that All are free."
~ F. W. Hegel, The Philoshophy of History
~ F. W. Hegel, The Philoshophy of History
"The Body of Christ"
"Amen"
Peter Klompf paused for a moment to bless himself before returning to his seat in the small room allocated for Catholic Mass within the Reichswehr base deep within the Soviet Union.
In some ways it was an island within an island, Peter was one of the few members of the little diocese amongst his predominantly protestant peers and they were only allocated a dusty room inside the base gynasium with which to hold Mass. Peter wasn't sure he believed in God any longer, he had been having doubts for quite some time, but he attended Mass regularly anyway. It was good to make Father Weissberg, the attendant Standortpfarrer, feel like he was a helpful and necessary presence amongst the suspicious Prussian elites that made up the Reichswehr leadership. Even if Peter didn't necessarily tell the man everything when it came to confession, he sympathised with him all the same.
Peter's father had missed the Great War, a lung affliction as a consequence of a particularly bad case of gout had made sure of that. Peter had been too young to really notice the bitterness it had helped to generate in the man but it had festered all the same, and as he grew up he began to be aware that whenever his father would punish him disproportionately for whatever trouble he had gotten into, or go off on a rant about the Communists, or the Jews or both, that there was something lacking in the man that couldn't quite be healed by providing for his wife and only son. As Peter had neared the age of military service his father had increasingly mentioned the heroism of those who had fought and died for Germany in the Great War, as well as those who had saved Munich from those who had filled their house with vagrants during the brief life of the Bavarian Soviet. It was transparently leading towards an inevitable outcome, Peter knew he was destined to have his father live through him vicariously. He was going to be an officer in the Reichswehr.
His father had nearly lost their family business amidst the hyperinflation of 1923-24 but his friends in the world of Munich's wealthy had allowed him to get back on his feet. Those same contacts had now gotten Peter an officer's candidacy for the army of the Republic that most in those rich circles despised.
"We'll need good men like you and your father, young Klompf, when the time comes." Peter had been assured. When it came to seeking out volunteers for the tank school in Kazan he had put his name down gladly. It was much easier not to be patronised in a place that did not officially exist.
Germany's inferiority in armoured warfare had been a major reason for their defeat in the Great War, and whilst the far-right prattled on about their country having been stabbed in the back there were enough sober minds in the Reichswehr to know that if Germany was ever to reassert herself on the European stage, she would need to learn from the real causes of her defeat. It was thus crucial that the Reichswehr keep abreast of all the new innovations in armoured warfare, even when the peace terms dictated to Germany by the victors officially forbade them from having any armoured vehicles whatsoever.
The Soviet Union had provided a solution to the problems of zealous foreign observers keen to uphold the Versaillies treaty, the Bolsheviks had made the news coming from Russia more enigmatic than ever, and even as Germany's flaunting of its rearmament became increasingly transparent the Reichswehr and the Red Army had continued their cooperation. The two forces worked well together, even if there were those in the Reichswehr who would rather the cooperation end, feeling that emnity between the German army born out of Prussian nobility and one made of workers and peasants was the natural state of affairs. .
Peter had cultural exchange on his mind as he walked towards the canteen, the officers who were wary of their Soviet ally had tried to restrict as much contact as possible with Soviet citizens who weren't directly involved in the military cooperation, however their food was locally sourced and the German chefs had gone native, to great acclaim. A rich, welcoming smell greeted him and Peter was relieved that there were several trays of Chebureki pastires left. Taking his fill Peter sat with his colleagues and bit into the warm dough before savouring the combination of blood sausage and peppers that made up the Russo-German fusion food. It wasn't the only recent collaboration being hatched.
"That new British tank has some speed to it, even Ivan seemed to grasp it." One of his comrades commented jovially, and whilst the others nodded along enthusiastically Peter could only sigh in exasperation.
"I wish I could have come along but Hacher's still seeing Bolsheviks in his borscht." His friend's laughed nervously whilst looking around themselves to check no-one else was listening in too closely. "Hacher" was Major Joseph Harpe, unofficial director of a tank school that didn't officially exist, Peter supposed such a shadowy existence lended itself to paranoia and he would single out individual members of the school who he felt he could trust to report on any activity they suspected to resemble communist infiltration.
"He handed me a copy of Unser Kampf and asked me if I knew anyone who had a Russian girlfriend." Peter went on with the story in a questioning tone, still not quite able to take it seriously.
"What a load of nonsense, honestly, the Russians won't even print the damned thing anymore, let alone in German!" Peter's friend Klaus' knowledge of such a fact raised a few eyebrows, the young man seemed to acknowledge that he'd gone too far.
"And besides...Franz's girlfriend can't read!" The group burst out laughing once more as their comrade Franz's face reddened.
"I'm here to ride tanks, that's all. If any of you upstarts had served in the war then you..."
The tankers began to rise in the effort to cut out a rant from their older friend that they had heard far too many times. His experiences in the First World War had taught him that Germany needed to be the best in the world at tanks for when the next war began. The thought was worth scoffing about, that's why they were all here. Anything else picked up along the way was purely incidental.
As the group strolled out of the canteen, Peter felt Klaus stroking his hand.
"Are we still on for tonight?"
Peter gave a barely noticeable nod, before squeezing Klaus' wrist.
---
It didn't happen every night, but it was an increasingly common occurance. Peter would lay awake in the communal barracks waiting for the rest of the camp to settle down for the evening, then, slowly, the creep of footsteps would be heard, followed by another pair, and another, until Peter himself slid out of bed and took his place in the circle, as Klaus adjusted the paraffin lamp to emit as little light as possible before he unveiled tonight's reading. The discussion group's loss of Unser Kampf was no great shame, Peter hadn't found it to be a particularly fascinating read, and with election's approaching in the Fatherland there was more than enough KPD literature going around.
The group sat silently, intent on picking up on Klaus' hushed revolutionary tones. All around them the Reichswehr's leadership sat soundly, unaware that the outside world was red.
---
Sorry for the wait on this, my Barbarossa series over at SLP has been a bit of a distraction.
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On the Vickers Mk II Medium, bought by the USSR in 1931: I've read various accounts of its' speed, usually listed as anything between 13 and 18mph - but someone once told me that the beasts could reach over 20mph, though i don't know in what circumstances.
IOTL Harpe went east in April 1931, and after returning home served (eventually as CO) at the Panzer Troops School at Wünsdorf. Took part in the Rhineland and Sudetenland occupation moves. So, one of the first experienced Panzer commanders around.
Missed this somehow. I like the chapter, gives a viewpoint of the average soldier which is sometimes overlooked in AH fics.
Chapter LXIII
Without you,
there’s many
have got out of hand,
all the sparring
and squabbling
does one in.
There’s scum
in plenty
hounding our land,
outside the borders
and also
within.
~ Conversation with Comrade Lenin, Vladimir Mayakovsky
there’s many
have got out of hand,
all the sparring
and squabbling
does one in.
There’s scum
in plenty
hounding our land,
outside the borders
and also
within.
~ Conversation with Comrade Lenin, Vladimir Mayakovsky
Johann felt a pain in his stomach reading the morning paper.
His surroundings, the small kitchen within his modest flat, the autumn sun spilling through the window, the smell of cheap coffee and black bread, all felt off. The construction of barricades and the boarding up of windows could be viewed from outside, but even this had become commonplace as the clashes between the Red Front and the police had escalated. Not even the woman lying asleep in his bed was enough to make him feel as something was particularly amiss. The situation was too normal for the headline of Die Rote Fahne.
NOW IS OUR TIME - VOTE KPD LIST 3
A certain degree of bombast could be expected on the day of the federal elections, but Johann had never felt particularly keen on the notion of taking part in such state organised activities. Still, Hitler demanded the strategy be retained, and even emphasised above the violent overthrow of the bourgeois state and he had made it clear that if you didn't see eye to eye with him then you could join Thalmann and his increasingly farcical Moscow party. 1930 would be their year of triumph, the boss had predicted, although Johann wasn't sure if that meant anything beyond elections in a republic that didn't deserve to exist.
"Find anything interesting in there?"
Johann was shaken from his doubts as he turned towards Eva, grinning.
"Nothing much, I haven't got to the football scores yet."
"Try page 8," she frowned.
Johann leafed through the pages until he found a collection of photos with a handful of descriptions on the sides, above it was printed the headline, 'Berlin: The monarcho-fascist coup nears!'.
The photos did just that, showing Berlin police walking alongside Volkisch Bund blackshirts in seemingly structured way, the two groups consorting with one another and in the largest, unsurprisingly emphasied, photograph there was what looked like a police officer in his antiquated uniform giving a talk to the monarchist paramilitaries. The police coordinating with far-right groups in suppressing worker's demonstrations hadn't been uncommon in the past but taken on the day before the election, with the Red Front officially banned, there was something off about it. It was enough to lend a degree of legitimacy to the urgency of the headline.
"That is new." he responded reservedly.
"And did you see who took them?" Eva responded eagerly.
At the bottom of the page in a smaller font there was a credit, 'Photos by Cmde Eva Braun.' This was more startling than Volkisch Bund collusion with the police, and momentarily Johann was left speechless.
"They don't notice you when you're dressed like a good German girl who knows her place, they likely just thought I was a bumpkin on holiday in the big city." Johann saw Eva grinning as she sat there in her modest but slightly ruffled skirt and blazer, all beige and red, a leer of dark red lipstick amongst sharp white teeth on a pale white face. Johann tried to smile back but could only laugh increduously as looked between her and the paper.
"They used your real name?!"
"I'm an aspiring photo-journalist who's been printed in a national newspaper, of course I'm going to use my real name." Eva's grin had been replaced with a scowl but it was no less savage. This was supposed to be her moment of triumph and he was detracting from that. Johann wondered for a moment if he was going to end up with a stilleto in his thigh like that fascist at the stadtpark.
"You've put the bastards in their place, in a much better way than I could have" he stated with an objective manner, hoping to reassure her, "but then again I'm too wary of exposing myself to that sort of vulnerability."
Eva rolling her eyes at this and joined him at the table, peering over her work.
"There must be at least a thousand Eva Brauns in this city, and I looked so pedestrian there's no way they'll remember me, I'll remove my party pin until after the election and then, when we've taken control of the Reichstag, we can just abolish the police and the fascists."
"I wish I had your faith in elections." Johann sighed.
"You think Hitler's overconfident?" She muttered as she looked scornfully at the empty coffee jug.
"I just don't know what it's going to affect if we suddenly become the major player in the Reichstag, the elites have more than enough power to ignore us and proceed with business as usual. He's promised that this is going to be the beginning of the end of capitalism but I can't help but feel, and this is off the record, that we're just throwing money we can't spend into a borgeois electoral campaign we can't gain anything from.
"Maybe he's just trying to show the Social Democrats that he's serious about working in government?"
"That's pointless, they'll only side with the police and the fascists when it comes down to it."
Eva looked at him neutrally for a moment, as if bored of his moaning.
"I'll even dye my hair blonde if it makes you feel safer."
Johann laughed at that and got up, searching for his stahlrute in preparation for the day ahead.
"Seriously, some men would love that, having a blonde to spend the morning with."
"I'm not that sort of man, Genosse Braun."
The two shared a kiss, before Johann opened the door to his flat as he indicated the time had come for them to depart. From the close of his flat the noise from the construction of the barricades joined a roar of other vibrant senses as Berlin prepared for election day, and whatever was to follow. In these slums, the fresh air was stinging and blinding. It was a sensation of victory that forced him to remove all doubt from his mind.
The endsieg lay ahead, electorally or otherwise.
---
The portrait is Flapper Girl by Rolf Armstrong.