"Our Struggle": What If Hitler Had Been a Communist?

If we're talking logistics, I suppose a big question is if TTL's Germany will be as bad at producing trucks compared to the British Empire as OTL. Quite curious how the German-Soviet alliance will do in the coming war. I'm reminded of @BiteNibbleChomp 's "The Twin Vipers" timeline, though in TTL the two tyrants are on much better terms.

And like that timeline, I'm predicting the Germans will not get as lucky as OTL with the Sickle Cut, or else the war will be over quick. Heck, will they even focus on mobile warfare like OTL?
 
I wouldn't count Japan out. Their OTL military was woefully unequipped to fight the Soviets, but it didn't have to be this way, and they certainly have an incentive TTL to focus their doctrine on land warfare in Manchuria rather than a strike south at the west. As long as they don't invade China I think they definitely have a shot at gaining the upper hand on the Manchurian front.
Like in Nomonhan Incident? Against opponent with lot better tanks and planes on his side now, no great purge on Soviet side and no threat from West? And Germany that will not deplete it's forces in pointless African campaigns? Thanks to scores of communist in most occupied states dealing with local resistance will be lot easier for Germany and USSR in OTL, no Yugoslav partisans and others to hold entire divisions at bay.
 
Like in Nomonhan Incident? Against opponent with lot better tanks and planes on his side now, no great purge on Soviet side and no threat from West? And Germany that will not deplete it's forces in pointless African campaigns? Thanks to scores of communist in most occupied states dealing with local resistance will be lot easier for Germany and USSR in OTL, no Yugoslav partisans and others to hold entire divisions at bay.
Yes, as I said, an incident that came after almost a decade of the Japanese essentially not caring about armor and maintaining a military designed for war in China and the Pacific. Here there's a chance they focus much more on warfare in the north.
 
Yes, as I said, an incident that came after almost a decade of the Japanese essentially not caring about armor and maintaining a military designed for war in China and the Pacific. Here there's a chance they focus much more on warfare in the north.
You know that ww2 starts in 1936 so they don't really have time for anything like that.
 
Of course, Of course. Such Silly Bourgeousis Failures as Nationalism, Revanchism and Egomania have absolutely nothing to do with it. Our Volksfurher is a true visionary!

(Warning, Warning: Sarcasm Bar nearing explosion)

Hitler likely wouldn't mind the nationalism and revanchism but he probably would take the egoism accusation personally.

I'd like to shout out this channel, and hopefully we can get an interlude chapter of a joint German/Russian cartography commission falling apart over how to render British placenames XD

That was a great video and interesting watch. The notion of a cartography commission kinda reminds me of this parody map of the London Underground translated into German in such a way that it is completely useless for everyone.

Sorry for typing errors, but English is not my first language:
In our timeline, Hitler's theoretical errors (among others) was his total disregard for socialist and liberal systems, both of which he saw as belonging to degenerate races and controlled by the Jews in the rear, I mean, population, resources or capacity. industrialists did not care since he was convinced that they would be defeated before his "Aryan" armies.
Here everything seems to indicate that their inability to distinguish between bourgeoisies that opt for fascism and those that opt for liberalism as a form of domination (and the contradictions that usually face them) since by placing them both as part of the same "international conspiracy" it will end up leading him to the same mistake on our timeline: declaring war on everyone at the same time.

That's a good point. I think some of the OTL mistakes can be put down to diplomatic and intelligence failures amongst other things but even then it's the sort of thing that a racialised worldview would engender in the first place. "The British and French actually followed through in declaring war in defence of Poland? Well that just proves it's all a Jewish plot!" "The Red Army is far larger than we anticipated? Well it'll all fall apart once we kick in the door anyway!" The one thing I would say is that an economic worldview, even one that takes Marx and Lenin's analysis to a paranoid extreme via a German exceptionalist stance, is still going to be more rational than any racialised one. It's far easier to take industrial capacity seriously when you can't dismiss the country as being full of "subhumans" or "mongrels".

USA can't afford to lose 5 million soldiers,

They probably could but not much more beyond that.

True but you have to factor in the lack of Lend-Lease as well. Without that the Soviets can't devote as much industry towards aircraft and task as OTL and German production won't make up the difference at all.
It made 1% of overall Soviet effort in OTL, and entire wester part of Union is safe place now, and not battlefield. They don't need nothing from it.
We are talking about Lend and Lease in actual history, not Soviet Cold War Propaganda.
You are correct about the USSR having significantly more food, manpower, production capacity, etc with it's own land not touched, though.
Exactly, that lend-lease was why the Soviets were able to focus their entire war industry on just basically guns, planes and tanks. It's a major reason OTL they were able to deal with the poor logistical capability of Eastern Europe which the Germans couldn't. Germany can't replace that material TTL and supply their own forces.
They probably can strictly speaking. The main reason the USSR had a shortage of materials and equipment to start with was large amounts being captured and their production facilities being overrun or disrupted during that. Without that well... lets just say i'm betting on Stalin for this round.

I wouldn't have any pretensions of trying to resolve the great Lend Lease debate here although I think we can all acknowledge it was important even if the question as to what extent it was essential will continue to be discussed in perpetuity. Although it can be portrayed as accounting for a small percentage of the Soviet war effort overall there were aspects of it which couldn't be simply accounted for by alleviating the destruction and disruption caused by the Axis invasion. By the same token you don't have a Soviet people fighting for their lives in a existential conflict against fascist-imperialism. Granted that is Hitler's worldview ITTL but the Soviets might not be too keen on playing the role he has set out for them.

Well. If the Kwangtung Army doesn't decide to invade China might be more accurate. Tokyo really didn't have that much say in the matter.

Tokyo has a bit more say than IOTL given that the Kwantung Army missed the bus on Manchuria although the militarists are inclined to blame Tokyo for that happening in the first place.

If we're talking logistics, I suppose a big question is if TTL's Germany will be as bad at producing trucks compared to the British Empire as OTL. Quite curious how the German-Soviet alliance will do in the coming war. I'm reminded of @BiteNibbleChomp 's "The Twin Vipers" timeline, though in TTL the two tyrants are on much better terms.

One of the things I liked about that TL was the conscious choice to go down a road less travelled than what usually happens in a Axis-Soviet alliance scenario. That certainly is a consideration here as well although as you say it has a different setting to begin with.

And like that timeline, I'm predicting the Germans will not get as lucky as OTL with the Sickle Cut, or else the war will be over quick.

If memory serves Sickle Cut was shelved in that TL whereas here Manstein isn't even around in the first place!


Thanks to scores of communist in most occupied states dealing with local resistance will be lot easier for Germany and USSR in OTL, no Yugoslav partisans and others to hold entire divisions at bay.

There's a bit of give and take there as whilst you gain local Communist support in any given occupied state you might also lose a lot of the state apparatus in doing so. The Nazis were quite happy to use the elements of the existing authorities in their occupation in Scandinavia, Western Europe and to a certain extent the Balkans, conversely Communist groups in said countries were almost perfectly set-up for resistance as they were already used to clandestine or underground organisation in places where they were marginalised or outright banned. The problem is that preparing an armed uprising isn't necessarily the same as maintaining the public transport system. Then you have fascist and other reactionary movements that were willing to collaborate with the Nazis or at least keep quiet; to use your example of Yugoslavia you had the Ustaše as particularly "enthusiastic" Nazi collaborators but who would otherwise have been well placed to mount an armed insurgency.
 

xsampa

Banned
Tudeh doesn’t exist at this point ITTL and Soviet occupation was associated with the Gilan movement but could we see elements of the military going over to the communists during the Soviet occupation of Iran?
 
Tudeh doesn’t exist at this point ITTL and Soviet occupation was associated with the Gilan movement but could we see elements of the military going over to the communists during the Soviet occupation of Iran?
Probably tbh. Now, this does depend on how the Soviets push the imagery of said occupation as "liberation from foreign despots etc etc" or a more overtly one sided relationship. E.G If the soviets annex anything into the SU, probably less likely that military elements will remain loyal vs if they don't some will doubtless be opportunistic.
 
IMO how WW2 goes TTL depends on Spain. If the right gains control without a civil war then when war breaks out even if France gets overrun like OTL Spain can the Allied remnants can hold a line on the Spanish-Franco border. That means Italy can hopefully use the Alps in defense as well without facing the full might of both Germany and Russia and thus hold the line. If that happens there is a good chance if the US joins the war of them being able to at the very least recover France. If the left wins in Spain however I would consider Europe to be red not matter what by wars end.
 
There's a bit of give and take there as whilst you gain local Communist support in any given occupied state you might also lose a lot of the state apparatus in doing so. The Nazis were quite happy to use the elements of the existing authorities in their occupation in Scandinavia, Western Europe and to a certain extent the Balkans, conversely Communist groups in said countries were almost perfectly set-up for resistance as they were already used to clandestine or underground organisation in places where they were marginalised or outright banned. The problem is that preparing an armed uprising isn't necessarily the same as maintaining the public transport system. Then you have fascist and other reactionary movements that were willing to collaborate with the Nazis or at least keep quiet; to use your example of Yugoslavia you had the Ustaše as particularly "enthusiastic" Nazi collaborators but who would otherwise have been well placed to mount an armed insurgency.
They started as squad of 200 people under Italians when they took over, and gave away entire Croatian cost in return. This time ustashe really do not exist as power, and chetniks who will put up fight can't get rearmed, they will be butchered by communist who will assimilate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_Peasant_Party and Serbian equivalents . When Yugoslavia falls there will be no significant unified resistance agains Communist, beside of sporadic terror attacks. Nationalist parties just hate one another to much, and with no concentration camps to exterminate 100 000 Jews, Serbs and antifacist in NDH plus 300 000 outside of camps, and some 250 000 dead Croats/muslims/antifacist by chetniks to galvanise people to rise up Yugoslavia will cause no problems to Hitler or Stalin here. And if they allow Yugoslavs to take land tha Italy got after end of WW1, even less ressistance.
 
Some of these temporary sites would eventually form the first reclamation centres, where so many Germans would disappear in the coming years.
I can't help but have a horrible sinking feeling that Gerda is going to become our Ilse Koch, or maybe even our Heydrich, at least based upon the name 'reclamation' used in conjunction with her inner monologue in Hamburg during the Civil War. Which is a shame I am still rooting for Gerda despite it all. Truly Gnosse Hitler's predictions of an International Financier Plot will be proven true if Gerda looses in the end whilst _Ernst_ of all people comes out smelling like roses!
 
I can't help but have a horrible sinking feeling that Gerda is going to become our Ilse Koch, or maybe even our Heydrich, at least based upon the name 'reclamation' used in conjunction with her inner monologue in Hamburg during the Civil War. Which is a shame I am still rooting for Gerda despite it all. Truly Gnosse Hitler's predictions of an International Financier Plot will be proven true if Gerda looses in the end whilst _Ernst_ of all people comes out smelling like roses!
I don’t know if Ilse Koch would be an accurate comparison, since Gerda was with Hitler during a visit to Moscow in Chapter LXIX. Reinhard Heydrich might be the more accurate comparison, but I don’t know what’s gonna happen that’ll bring her close to the level of one of OTL’s most heinous mass murderers.
 
They didn't even executed Goering, but send him to work camp, so comparison is not right. This Germany will not even butcher they kulaks, this is just anger of the people manifested and pointed against nobility and rich. Why kill when they can work for new future?
 
They didn't even executed Goering, but send him to work camp, so comparison is not right. This Germany will not even butcher they kulaks, this is just anger of the people manifested and pointed against nobility and rich. Why kill when they can work for new future?
Chavez's Venezuela didn't turn into what it is now within one day of him taking office either.
 
They started as squad of 200 people under Italians when they took over, and gave away entire Croatian cost in return.

200 armed and trained individuals with powerful foreign backing is enough to start an armed insurgency under the right circumstances, successful ones have been achieved starting with much less.

I can't help but have a horrible sinking feeling that Gerda is going to become our Ilse Koch, or maybe even our Heydrich, at least based upon the name 'reclamation' used in conjunction with her inner monologue in Hamburg during the Civil War. Which is a shame I am still rooting for Gerda despite it all. Truly Gnosse Hitler's predictions of an International Financier Plot will be proven true if Gerda looses in the end whilst _Ernst_ of all people comes out smelling like roses!
I don’t know if Ilse Koch would be an accurate comparison, since Gerda was with Hitler during a visit to Moscow in Chapter LXIX. Reinhard Heydrich might be the more accurate comparison, but I don’t know what’s gonna happen that’ll bring her close to the level of one of OTL’s most heinous mass murderers.
They didn't even executed Goering, but send him to work camp, so comparison is not right. This Germany will not even butcher they kulaks, this is just anger of the people manifested and pointed against nobility and rich. Why kill when they can work for new future?

The reclamation program is basically a means of trying to carry out something like dekulakisation in a more 'sophisticated' manner with the means that Germany, as an industrialised state and world leader in many fields, has available to it. I'll elaborate on this as it develops but for the moment it is a pretty blunt excuse for using 'class enemies' as a forced labour pool; proletarianising them whether they like it or not. Gerda won't be involved directly but her thoughts on reclamation do represent the sort of mindset that will drive the centres.

Chavez's Venezuela didn't turn into what it is now within one day of him taking office either.

I am keen to get to South America ITTL but there isn't much use in comparing present day Venezuela to the DAR. Very different economic and political set-ups to take into consideration, particularly from a post-colonial standpoint. For example, even at the outset of the DAR, a guy wouldn't be able to parade himself around as the actual Volksfuhrer for very long. There's not going to be any slow creep towards what Hitler's KPD regards as the dictatorship of the proletariat.

i hope Red Germany reforms into a more libsoc country after they win

That's basically the 'promise' of the state, the current power structure is a necessary evil but the final victory will bring about the promised new society where the workers state can realise its true potential. But the number of enemies they have to defeat beforehand means that future is going to be a long way away.

Red, what is going on with Georgi Dimitrov, as we didn't heard about him forr more than 2 years?

Recalled to Moscow after failing to anticipate the takeover of the KPD by Brandlerite forces and the subsequent farce of the KPD (ML).
 
It's the central question of the timeline, isn't it? To what extent does an authoritarian ruler being communist matter vs that dictator being fascist. In terms of external and internal reaction it obviously does but in terms of how they rule.

So we have a handful of people, Hitler, Goebbels and Guderian who are working within a communist germany whereas in otl they held positions of power within a fascist germany. We're following people who in otl devised and carried out the greatest mass murder in human history but in a timeline where the ideology driving them is not the one which encouraged such atrocities. The overwhelming question is does following a different ideology with different allies and different priorities save us from those atrocities or does it not. Was it their ideology or their character that drove this?

Communism is an interesting choice for this because it's not a political ideology that demands violence on the same scale as fascism does but it's also not a pacifistic philosophy, it's nature encourages class war and views violence as acceptable in that goal. We've already seen summary executions.

There have been authoritarian dictators who were marxists but would not have ruled that much different if they were fascists. Mengistu and his purge of the Ethiopian student socialists who had brought him to power comes to mind. If you are someone who has the power to commit atrocities one argument goes, you can justify that regardless of what your supposed ideology is, especially if your actual ideology is power. But fascism is innately violent in a way communism isn't so it produces more Mengistus.

I don't see Hitler ruling as OTL and the timeline flat our agreeing with popcorn that a nazi dictator and a communist dictator would run the country the same because well that's nonsense. But I also don't see him ruling as a complete saint (or why choose hitler) but rather some mixture of the two, where the change in ideology prevents anything like the shoah but he's still hitler and hitler's germany is still not a fun place.
 
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