"Our Struggle": What If Hitler Had Been a Communist?
- Thread starter The Red
- Start date
I don't see the communists winning that easily, speciallty against the Reichswehr. I see Hitler going underground spreading dissent gradually and silently. Could the new reactionary goverment be able to fix the economy to lower the dissent?
I guess Hitler needs a minute to switch gears from office politics back to guerrilla warfare; was entertaining seeing Gerda help the process along :^)
Well ill give ITTL Hitler this, he’s not the type to take the Cowards way out when it looks hopeless for him like right about now.
Going off this map from earlier in the thread, the KPD might be able to get its own insurrection rolling if it flees to Leipzig and stirs up some eleven-year old memories.
Given how much trouble the German state governments gave the Nazis (to the point where they had to be replaced wholesale with Gaue) I'm guessing they aren't too happy about the monarchist coup. Abolishing the states is kind of impractical considering the monarchists' "traditionalist" stance and most of the old sub-imperial royals still being alive and ready to come back, but letting substates of dubious loyalty have Kaiserreich-level privileges again might be too much of a carrot with not enough stick... Either way, while the state governments and the monarchists dither about over how exactly to respond to each other the KPD and left-SPD might just have a chance of rallying SPD-governed states (and their state defense forces, and their economic bases) to the "defense of the republic". So that's Hamburg and maybe Bremen/Kiel in the bag, though Bavaria and the other South Germans might throw in with the monarchists-- they're reliably conservative, and if they play nice they might get the Wittelsbachs/other royals back. But then again, the Catholic Center Party did well enough during the republican period and may fear the radical conspiracy-theory-minded Protestants or nationalist closet-neopagans a restored Kaiserreich might promote to top offices; those would be just the kind of people to accompany an Anschluss with a renewed Kulturkampf.
So that leaves Brandenburg crushed under the boot, Saxony and the northern coast cities (and probably the Rheinland) seeing Red, the South probably divided between Center-Party boys wanting to stay neutral and out-and-out monarchists, meanwhile Lower Saxony/Hesse/Thuringia are... well, I don't know exactly. Neutral, I guess? Probably get torn apart by the other factions.
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Does this mean Stalin backstabs Hitler and then installs a puppet in the DAR?
Also I think it is highly likely that Albert Einstein et al do not flee the DAR, and thus give Germany a chance of getting the bomb to end the war in the 11 year stalemate. Especially since it was Einstein who informed the US government of the feasibility of actually getting the bomb in real life, instead the bomb would be in German hands. If the DAR nukes London and the US, then it would certainly engender the hatred towards them that is seen in the literature ITTL.
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Well, in Hearts of Iron you can choose different flags for your country, so maybe that's the case in the screenshot?
Speaking of that, I wonder who would be the leader of the "German Reich" (if you created it on Hearts of Iron) in this universe?
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This is one of my favorite timelines, if not my favorite. It manages to make the rise to power of a Communist Hitler entirely realistic and believable, which is quite the task in my opinion. And, when you can make Hitler a borderline sympathetic character, that's a sure sign of skilled writing. I'm eagerly awaiting future updates - hope to see one soon!
To quote Einstein, "Time will tell...sooner or later, time will tell...."
I'm guessing it would be that guy that looks like the former President of Honduras.
Thanks! I feel I should underline that the aim was never to make Hitler sympathetic, borderline or otherwise, but he is the occasionally the readers eyes and very much the underdog for a lot of the story, at least so far, so it kinda makes sense at the same time. I just felt that people would have a rough time understanding why Hitler might become a Communist if it wasn't shown from inside his own head. It was a bit of a tough job to be honest and it continues to be but I always appreciate the feedback. You won't have long to wait for the next update.
This discussion comes up from time to time but whilst I'm not against them in principle the problem isn't so bad that you can go several pages between updates and there's a lot of interesting discussion that I feel I'd end up having to threadmark anyway. I might get round to it eventually but I don't feel it's a major priority at the moment.
Yeah...I wonder how quickly our view of him will shift when he is actually in power and purging society of all that oppose him pecifically...
The community that has been built up around Our Struggle is fantastic. The no threadmarks really hampered my progress until I read the book on Kindle, then I went through the entire thread and the feedback, critiques and involvement are some of the best parts of this timeline.
If The Red had to threadmark every chapter that’s one thing, but there are a lot of great and insightful discussions over aspects of this story and wider-world within the story that would be almost required for you to really get all the context and the like.
If The Red had to threadmark every chapter that’s one thing, but there are a lot of great and insightful discussions over aspects of this story and wider-world within the story that would be almost required for you to really get all the context and the like.
A Red Alert reference, nice!
It's all too easy to forget that even the worst people in human history are still, well, humans. If we forget this, then we can't understand why they chose to do the terrible things they did. It's often scary to feel sympathy or empathy for terrible people, but natural all the same - even the real Hitler was just a man, driven to horrific, unspeakable atrocities through a series of events that could, in theory, have happened to anyone. That's why we have to try to understand their thinking and look at things through their perspective - so that we can learn how not to end up going down that path again. I love this timeline because it allows you to understand and experience the descent into radicalism and evil of this alternate-Hitler, to watch the fall of a relatively ordinary man into a feared and brutal dictator with the blood of millions on his hands. Even though it's fiction, I think there's something to be learned from it.
I couldn't agree more. I know I can be a bit mean with updates but I really do appreciate the amount of thought people put into discussing this work, it really makes it so much more fun to write.
Chapter LXVIII
The White Army will, in any case, find a pretext for a bloodbath. They need this, and the extent of the slaughter will be determined by political calculations alone, by nothing else.
~ Eugen Levine
Johann's arms began to strain from being held behind his head for so long, inevitably they began to tire. The response from the Reichswehr guard was a rifle butt to the kidney, the pain of which forced him off balance and to land on his knees.
"Get up, scum." The guard piped, his encouraging tone dripping with malice. "The party's over for the Reds, as it is for all the other enemies of Germany, there's no time for you to slacken any longer." Johann was too tired to resist the soldier's taunts, tired enough to accept the path of least resistance that was to get up and keep moving past the shattered districts of Mitte.
The Red Front had lost the battle before it had even begun, having been outnumbered, outgunned and taken by surprise. But even if it had been a hopeless situation, Johann felt overcome with shame. They were meant to be the defenders of the working class and now their fellow workers dwellings lay in ruins, their own corpses strewn throughout the streets from the crossfire, unlikely to ever be known again other than as traitors to Germany who deserved what they had coming to them. He was just one of a column of men being led into captivity, past the bodies of the dead women and children they had sworn their lives to protect. With the sun gone from the sky, their vacant faces seemed to shift amongst the only glowing light source that was the burning husk of Karl Liebknecht Haus.
The party was over.
Shortly after Johann and the other defenders of the Bulowplatz had been surrounded and overrun, some of his comrades had been led through the KPD offices. Obstensibly this was to point out any booby traps but more likely it was actually to try and give the Reichswehr any information on sensitive material or other hidey holes that might illuminate their commanders to Communist plans before the building itself was set alight.
Whatever they had been looking for seemed to have been found, and surprisingly the talk amongst their captors had become more urgent rather than triumphal as the building that had come to represent all Johann's hopes began to burn. Hitler's project now appeared to be something more akin to an effigy and though he could still hope the leader hadn't been captured, Johann couldn't help but doubt whether even someone of Hitler's talents would be able to pick up the pieces.
As he and his fellow comrades were loaded onto trucks bound for an unclear destination, he realised it was his only hope left. The German Communist movement had been isolated from day one, being driven through battered streets laden with the dead of the proletariat he could only stare at the fallen and wonder if his own life had merely been a postponement in sharing their fate.
---
There had been a way out, Gerda hadn't misled anyone about that, although the plan itself was bizarre. Gathered around her were old comrades and former enemies, and a Protestant minister.
Potsdam had been the seat of the German monarchy in its day, a place where the crushing of revolutions was plotted rather than their creation. If Hindenburg's intentions were to be believed it appeared it might soon return to its historical purpose. Germany's conservative and militaristic establishment appeared to have linked hands with those elements who espoused outright reactionary and fascist agendas. The time of acquiescing to republican ideals, even in their most tepidly liberal form, appeared to be coming to an end. Such was the strength of the Communist Party that it had to be eradicated before it reduced the old aristocracy and the feckless bourgeoisie to the trashcan of history and built a workers state fit for the future. But here she was, still alive, alongside Adolf Hitler and whatever remained of the Zentrale. Karl Liebknecht Haus being replaced by a transient house run by a man who purported to be a member of a fringe Lutheran sect.
Whilst the KPD had safehouses across Germany it was for occasions like this that this hidey-hole in Potsdam was earmarked for. The Reichswehr had taken control of Berlin, apparently with the help of militias from the far-right parties, hours after the newly annointed Chancellor Von Schleicher had passed an Enabling Act with the blessing of President Hindenburg. The Red Front had been caught by surprise and the Communist leadership had been forced to flee, her alongside it after checking with her friend Christina to ensure she could remain in Berlin to look after Rosa.
Christina was her flatmate but she had assured Gerdda that she had workmates she could stay with, hopefully there was at least one who would happen to be a Communist sympathiser. Leaving Rosa in this precarious situation was a terrible risk but she considered it necessary. Gerda could very well be dead in the next couple of days, and despite a mother's natural urge to be near her young child, she realised her daughter,s safety meant distance. The strain was enough on its own that she felt she might have been reduced to a crying wreck by now if she didn't have her faith in the revolution to get her through. That and the hatred of the person who she was in much closer proximity to, Rosa's father.
The turn of the SPD had come a couple of days following the KPD's rout and it appeared they had fared just as well as their fellow Marxists/mortal enemies. Gerda hadn't been surprised, they might have understood the threat but they were likely still debating how serious it was right until the Reichswehr armoured cars arrived at their own headquarters. She couldn't quite manage to surpress an ironic grin when contact had been made between various go-betweens that the Social Fascists needed somewhere that was safe where both parties could consider their next moves. Together.
But, of course, Ernst Mehr had had to be one of those who had gotten out.
Rosa's father had spent the last ten years denying the fact the title belonged to him, to the extent he would avoid the mother and daughter whenever he could. Never had he allowed her the time of day to bring up the subject of support, let alone reconciliation. After a while Gerda had realised she did not want either; it had been a fling after all, and whilst it may have had unintended consequences she was not a dependent on anyone. However that did not absolve him in any way in her mind. She had made peace with these facts and naturally it was now that he had come running to her. Him and the remaining leadership of the SPD in Berlin and the State of Prussia. How romantic.
Those days in the safe house had been claustrophobic as members of both parties kept to themselves and said little. This went double for Ernst and Gerda. In the far corner of the bunks that were supposed to be made up for the homeless, Adolf Hitler and Willie Munzenberg conferred with Paul Levi in quiet mutters, often for hours at a time, before the men sat down on their bunks and did what everyone else seemed to be doing: staring into space, waiting.
This might not have been the expected reaction in the aftermath of a daring escape from occupied Berlin but before anything could be done between the two parties a third faction had to be consulted, the most important one of all; the workers themselves.
The representatives of the ADGB, the German Trade Union Confederation, had taken their time in arranging a meeting with the newly allied KPD and SPD and this had provoked much consternation amongst the assembled group, Gerda included. The Schleicher regime had announced its intention to unite the left and the right and whilst it had gone out of its way to crush the main parties of the left it seemed they had extended a hand to the trade unions. It was unclear whether anyone in the ADGB had taken this offer seriously but they had to be mulling their options over, and if that was the cause of the delay then it was perhaps understandable why the corner conferences were getting simultaneously more hushed and more agitated. The only reason why they were in Potsdam and not further afield was to remain close to the trade union leaders, if they were considering collboration with Schleicher's regime then everyone here was imperiled.
The ADGB delegation had finally arrived in the form of two brusque, hurried figures. Richard Muller and Hans Bockler, a Trotskyite and another Social Fascist. There had been little acknowledgement of the bizarre group in the chairtiable shelter before Hitler, Munzenberg, Levi, and Ernst had led the two trade unionists into the Minister's office, ejecting the bemused man from his records. God's work could apparently wait before a meeting of such potential historical importance.
Ernst had come out, but despite the anticipation from those gathered around he said nothing and stood amongst them, irritatingly close to Gerda. The other five men proceeded to stand put in front of the crowd in a line facing them, before joining their hands and raising them aloft. This evoked sighs of relief, laughter, and in response to the grinning (some would say girning) faces of those with their hands clasped together, some applause. Gerda smiled and clapped herself before realising Ernst had moved right next to her.
"I don't want you to think this needs to change anything between us, but it would appear we will need to work together if any of us have a chance."
Gerda frowned, her mood darkened automatically.
"This doesn't change the way I think about you at all, you are as much of a disgusting little coward to me today as you were yesterday," she saw Ernst's face darken as well, she was glad she could have as much effect on him as he her, "but-if we don't succeed-I will hold you personally responsible. And if the Freikorps somehow leave us alive, I'll make sure you don't get the chance to live on your knees."
Sullen faced as he was, Ernst barked with laughter.
"Welcome to the Einheitsfront."
---
The sight from the trucks carrying Johann and his beaten comrades gradually changed scenery as they went further and further from what had been their temporary prison. Urban environments changing to suburban, to industry, to more isolated housing. In the pitch black of night, it was harder to see and thus easier to discern that they were moving through rural areas.
Having been crammed in with this comrades in what was little more than a cow shed for over a week, Johann should have been glad for the fresh air. He was suffering just as much as his fellow captives from the lack of food and sleep over the last few days. The Reichswehr guards hadn't gone out of their way to torment them, but the psychological torture of what was planned for them was more than enough on its own. Even as the cold air blew past his face, the anxiety of where they were being taken only heightened his anxiety.
The vast Grunewald forest approached, lit up only by the headlights of the trucks.Those who had managed to sleep through the journey, likely out of sheer exhaustion, were startled awake by the discovery of where they had arrived. In this revelation they were joined by those who had remained awake with increasing dread.
Johann had tried to stay alert, looking for an opportunity to dive out of the truck as it had sped to this destination. It had been useless, those who held them captive were professionals after all, and whilst they were guarded with silent contempt the frequent jabs of a bayonet had reminded Johann and his comrades that they were being watched.
At least until they were no longer the Reichswehr's problem.
There was a crowd emerging from the forest; armed like the Reichswehr soldiers but less restrained in their glee at whatever they had planned for the captive revolutionaries. Johann was pused out of the truck at the end of a bayonet with the others and marched towards their hosts, who could now be identified by their blackshirts. It seemed to confirm the rumours the new army regime and the Volkisch Bund were actively cooperating, whilst dispelling those that he and the other captives were merely being moved to a larger prison complex.
They were made to walk towards the blackshirts, slowly being flanked, until they were surrounded by these men with raised guns and burning torches. Amongst the flames it was possible to see their leering grins, alongside the fear of his own Comrades. Johann wondered whether this was it, before he heard the trucks start up and drive off. Whatever the Reichswehr's role was in this deed, their job was done and it appeared they didn't want any further part in it.
"I want a single line formed walking into the woods. Anyone who moves out of said line will be shot. Now scum, move!"
They marched and Johann marched with them, guards at either side, into the darkness of the forest. Even with the torches the blackshirts held it was hard to see in the dense woods, branches and shrubbery made it hard to keep one's footing in such a state and, terrified of a trip being contrused as an escape attempt, the prisoners were soon all making a sort of jerky tiptoe dance through the woods. This was to the great amusement of their fascist captors. Amongst their jeers and taunts, Johann began to wonder whether it was worth putting up with this, he was fairly sure how this was going to end, why was he allowing the blackshirts to get a good laugh in before he had lead put between his eyes? The forests were dark enough that a good disturbance would allow at least some of his comrades to escape, but it would have to be a team effort, and could he rely on any of them? Were they thinking the same of him?
These doubts had not resolved themselves by the time Johann's group had been brought to a clearing lined with shovels. After being forced into the middle of the space, they were told to dig.
Johann proceeded to do so without resistance, still formulating a plan in his head. An hour later, he had begun a whispering campaign with his fellow labourers, one man he didn't recognise was sure they were merely digging so more trees could be planted. Forced labour could be expected of them after all. Others were more inclined to Johann's thinking of rushing the blackshirts with the shovels. It was all a matter of the right moment-
"That's enough, drop your shovels!" The Blackshirt who appeared to be in charge cried.
The moment was lost and now there was only silence as shovels thumped to the ground, the rifles were cocked.
"Get down!" came a feint, hoarse, cry and Johann instinctively followed the order. His face made impact with the dirt before the thought had properly registered itself in his mind, quickly enough to avoid the hail of gunfire that had erupted all around him. Other comrades of his had also gotten to the ground in enough time, others had failed to do so and began to be shot down by the fascists.
No, alongside the fascists.
Johann pulled the mud from his eyes to reveal what was really going on. The man who had ordered them to march and dig was shrieking from multiple bullets lodged in his torso, others amongst him lay far more still. The firing from the woods continued and the fascists, taken completely by surprise, flailed around helplessly amidst the barking of guns and the bullets whizzing by, trying to fire back at an invisible enemy. In their incompetence, or perhaps in their zeal, they hadn't had anyone stand guard for their little massacre. Johann hadn't imagined he could be so relieved that the Reichswehr had chosen to abandon him to his fate.
Hitler hadn't abandoned him, he had come to his rescue as Johann knew he would. What had happened in Berlin had been merely a minor setback. From this forest they would regroup and retake Berlin. The boss was back.
The final fascists fell to the ground dead or dying and once again all was still.
"Is there anyone alive out there?" The unfamiliar hoarse voice called out again.
"A few of us are Comrade," Johann shouted back triumphantly, "but no Fascists!"
The blackshirt who had been bleeding out suddenly groaned, spluttering out blood as he did so. Johann hoisted himself up from what had been meant to be his grave and grabbed the man's pistol before he could recover. Standing above the dying man, pistol in hand, he felt like he was in the Ruhr once more.
The blackshirt's expression twisted into unflinching contempt, even as he drooled blood. It appeared he was trying to say something.
"A...alles fu-fur-"
"Fuck you." Johann replied, emptying the magazine into the man's face.
Smoke billowed out of the warm gun as sounds of life returned, his surviving comrades helping each other out of the pit as their saviours crept out from the trees to greet them. Johann believed it would be too good to be true for Hitler himself to actually be amongst them but he dared to dream. The men approaching them wore blue shirts and black trousers, the one walking towards Johann was covered by a darker overcoat. His armband was wrong, they all were.
They had three arrows on them.
"That was quick thinking there, good job. We're sorry for the wait, we had to make sure we weren't being led into a larger trap before getting the jump on the blackshirts," the man who had emerged from the trees extended his hand, "we're from the Iron Front. We're here to take you somewhere safe."
Johann could only blink in disbelief.
Social Democrats, we've been saved by Social Democrats, he thought to himself.
How embarrassing.
---
Das Dritte Reich! is an SPD poster from 1932.
Oh boy its the Spanish Civil War prelude. German Boogaloo.
Where are my anarchists at?
Where are my anarchists at?
[MAX STIRNER LAUGHS IN CARTOON]
The German Anarchists had really haemorrhaged support by this juncture IOTL and I can only really see that being worse with a stronger KPD that espouses German Ideology, a party line with some quasi-Syndicalist elements. You might see some anarchists jumping on board, if memory serves that happened in the early days of the DPRK...I believe they were all subsequently purged.
Hitler lost faith in himself for a little bit, and Gerda saw how human he was, but Johann still sees Hitler as the boss who could do little wrong. Might have been desperation or loyalty.
So the Red Front and Iron Front are working together. And the support from the trade unions...
I feel like Germany’s weak economy is gonna tank again, at least temporarily, which will only help the Communists.
The militaristic fascist government comes to power and the first thing it does is purge the Left, causing open civil war in places which I’m sure even non-Communists are unhappy with the government for, and then follow that rough start with an already shaky economy taking a nosedive due to all the workers going on strike or due to the civil war and this new Third Reich has just made itself extremely unpopular.
Honestly if the Communists can just hold out, or retake Berlin, then the fascists are done for. They tried to do too much at once. They should have focused on the KPD and not gone after the SPD so openly until after the KPD and Hitler were neutralized.
Though this SPD/KPD Alliance is a means to an end, Hitler’s charisma and leadership abilities could easily bolster the depleted KPD with SPD converters as the SPD may feel their more moderate socialist and democratic ideals are not effective enough in this day and age of radical militant politics.
The SPD joining with the KPD is going to eat away at their identity until they just become KPD-lite and eventual loyal Communists to the future Volksführer.
So the Red Front and Iron Front are working together. And the support from the trade unions...
I feel like Germany’s weak economy is gonna tank again, at least temporarily, which will only help the Communists.
The militaristic fascist government comes to power and the first thing it does is purge the Left, causing open civil war in places which I’m sure even non-Communists are unhappy with the government for, and then follow that rough start with an already shaky economy taking a nosedive due to all the workers going on strike or due to the civil war and this new Third Reich has just made itself extremely unpopular.
Honestly if the Communists can just hold out, or retake Berlin, then the fascists are done for. They tried to do too much at once. They should have focused on the KPD and not gone after the SPD so openly until after the KPD and Hitler were neutralized.
Though this SPD/KPD Alliance is a means to an end, Hitler’s charisma and leadership abilities could easily bolster the depleted KPD with SPD converters as the SPD may feel their more moderate socialist and democratic ideals are not effective enough in this day and age of radical militant politics.
The SPD joining with the KPD is going to eat away at their identity until they just become KPD-lite and eventual loyal Communists to the future Volksführer.
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